The Trinity in the Old Testament

by hooberus 102 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DevonMcBride
    DevonMcBride

    Here is another point of view from the Jews

    http://www.drazin.com/chap4.htm

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning G--d (Elokim) created the heavens and the earth.

    In the Hebrew Bible, G--d is called by several Names, each denoting a different attribute (mercy, strictness, anger, etc.). By knowing what each Name signifies, one can fathom the Divine intention of a given verse. For instance:

    Exodus 6:2--3

    And G--d [Elokim] spoke to Moses, and said to him: ?I am the L--rd [A--noy]. And I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as G--d Al--mighty [Kel Shad--i], but by My Name A--noy, I was not known to them.?

    Elokim is the only plural Name of G--d in the Hebrew Bible. Lest this Name be mistranslated as G--ds, however, the Hebrew Bible states that Kel (a singular Name of G--d) created the universe:

    Isaiah 42:5

    Thus says G--d [Kel], the L--rd, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth....

    Elokim signifies G--d as the Supreme Judge over all creation. Likewise, a human judge is also called elohim:

    Exodus 7:1

    And the L--rd said to Moses: ?See, I have made you a judge [elohim] against Pharaoh; and Aaron, your brother, shall be your prophet.?

    I Samuel 28:12--13

    And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice....and the woman said to Saul, ?I saw a god--like being [elohim] ascending out of the earth.?

    It is not uncommon in Hebrew for plural words to have singular meanings. For example:

    Genesis 3:22

    ...lest [Adam] put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life [hayim], and eat and live forever.

    Hayim, a plural noun, means life, not lives.

    Genesis 24:13

    Behold, I stand by the well of water, and the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water [mayim].

    Mayim, a plural noun, means water, not waters.

    Exodus 33:11

    And the L--rd spoke to Moses face to face [panim el panim]....

    Panim, a plural noun, means face, not faces.

    Furthermore, in the original Hebrew, all the verbs and pronouns referring to Elokim in the creation story are singular:

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning G--d created the heavens and the earth.

    Genesis 1:3

    And G--d said: ?Let there be light,? and there was light.

    Genesis 1:5

    And G--d called the light ?day,? and the darkness He called ?night?....

    Genesis 1:7

    And G--d made the firmament....

    Genesis 1:27

    So G--d created man in His own image, in the image of G--d He created him; male and female He created them.

    Genesis 2:2

    And by the seventh day G--d finished His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

    Certain words pertaining to Elokim appear in both plural and singular forms:

    1.

    Genesis 35:7

    And he [Jacob] built an altar there, and called the place Kel Beth Kel because there G--d appeared to him....

    ?Appeared? is in the plural, niglu.

    Genesis 35:9

    And G--d appeared to Jacob again, when he came from Paddan--Aram, and blessed him.

    ?Appeared? is in the singular, vayera.

    2.

    Joshua 24:19

    And Joshua said to the people: ?You cannot serve the L--rd, for He is a holy G--d....?

    ?Holy? is in the plural, kedoshim, even though ?He? is singular.

    I Samuel 6:20

    And the men of Beth Shemesh said: ?Who can stand before the L--rd, this holy G--d, and to whom shall [the Ark] go up from us??

    ?Holy? is in the singular, kadosh.

    3.

    Psalms 58:12

    ...there is a G--d Who judges on earth.

    ?Judges? is in the plural, shofetim, even though ?is? is singular.

    Psalms 82:8

    Arise, O G--d, judge the earth....

    ?Judge? is in the singular, shoftah (as is ?arise,? kumah).

    4.

    Jeremiah 10:10

    ...He is the living G--d and the everlasting King....

    ?Living? is in the plural, hayim.

    II Kings 19:16

    ...hear the words of Sennacherib, which he has sent to taunt the living G--d.

    ?Living? is in the singular, hai.

    Yet Elokim is always used with a definite singular intent:

    Exodus 3:14

    And G--d said to Moses: ?I am that I am?....

    Joshua 2:11

    ?for the L--rd, your G--d, is G--d in heaven above and on earth below.

    I Kings 18:39

    And when all the people saw, they fell on their faces and said: ?The L--rd, He is G--d; the L--rd, He is G--d.?

    Psalms 46:11

    ?Be still and know that I am G--d; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted on earth.?

    Isaiah 37:15--16

    And Hezekiah prayed before the L--rd, saying: ?O L--rd of hosts, G--d of Israel, Who sits upon the cherubs, You are G--d, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; You have made heaven and earth.?

    Despite these and countless other proof texts, missionaries insist on interpreting the Name Elokim as ?G--ds,? thus ?proving? the trinity.


    Isaiah 48:16

    ?now the L--rd, G--d, has sent me, and His spirit.

    After delivering stern admonitions to the people, the prophet Isaiah warns them that he is speaking not of his own volition but as a messenger of G--d, under His influence. The Hebrew Bible calls this influence ?spirit.?

    G--d's spirit imbues His prophets with clairvoyance, courage, and the ability to decipher complex Divine messages:

    Genesis 41:38

    And Pharaoh said to his servants: ?Can we find such a one as [Joseph], a man in whom the spirit of G--d is??

    Numbers 11:25

    And the L--rd came down in a cloud and spoke to [Moses], and took of the spirit that was upon him and placed it upon the seventy elders; and it came to pass that when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, but they did not continue.

    I Samuel 10:6

    And the spirit of the L--rd will come mightily upon you [Saul], and you shall prophesy with them and be transformed into another man.

    Just as G--d can cause His spirit of holiness to rest on an individual, He can influence someone in the opposite direction:

    Judges 9:23

    And G--d sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem?.

    I Samuel 18:10

    And it came to pass on the morrow that an evil spirit from G--d came mightily upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day.

    Yet missionaries claim that the ?me? in our verse under discussion represents Jesus, the ?spirit? is the ?holy ghost,? and ?the L--rd, G--d? makes it a trinity! Besides the obvious absurdity of asserting that Jesus?not Isaiah?spoke these words, this interpretation contradicts another alleged proof of the trinity: ?Hear, O Israel: the L--rd our G--d, the L--rd is One? (Deuteronomy 6:4). For in this verse, missionaries contend that L--rd, G--d, and L--rd are three separate entities, whereas in the verse under discussion they agree that L--rd and G--d are One!


    Genesis 18:1--2

    The L--rd appeared to [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre, while he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and saw and behold, three men were standing over him....

    These three ?men? were angels, for after they departed from Abraham we read:

    Genesis 19:15

    And when the morning arose, the angels hastened Lot....

    Therefore, Abraham called their leader ?L--rd?:115

    Genesis 18:2--3

    ...and he saw and ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground. And he said: ?My L--rd, if I have found favor in your sight, please do not pass by your servant.?

    As Abraham spoke with this chief angel, the other two angels departed for Sodom:

    Genesis 18:20--22

    Then the L--rd said: ?Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done according to its outcry which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.? So the men turned from there and went to Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the L--rd.

    Genesis 19:1

    And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom....

    Although the Hebrew Bible states that the three ?men? were angels, missionaries say they were G--d appearing as the trinity. However, G--d and the angels were clearly separate entities:

    Genesis 19:13

    ?...for we [angels] are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become great before the L--rd, and the L--rd has sent us to destroy it.?


    Wherever G--d employs the term ?us? in the Hebrew Bible, He is referring to Himself and His angels, who act as His heavenly court:

    Job 33:23--24

    If there be for him an angel, one intercessor among a thousand to declare to man his uprightness; then He is gracious to him, and says: ?Deliver him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom.?

    Daniel 4:14

    The matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the sentence by the word of the holy ones?.

    ?Watchers? and ?holy ones? are angels, as we see elsewhere:

    Daniel 4:10

    I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and behold, a watcher and a holy one came down from heaven.

    Zechariah 14:5

    ?and the L--rd, my G--d, shall come, and all the holy ones with You.

    The prophet Daniel envisioned G--d presiding over a court of angels (as always, visions depict conceptual truths?all physical attributes are only metaphorical):

    Daniel 7:9--10

    I beheld till thrones were thrown down, and the Ancient of Days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, and its wheels burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came forth from before Him; a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him; they sat in judgment, and books were opened.

    ?Thrones? is in the plural to symbolize both harsh and lenient verdicts. These verdicts are then recorded in ?books? containing all mankind's merits and sins. These ?books? are also spoken of elsewhere:

    Psalms 69:29

    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Daniel 12:1

    ?and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who shall be found written in the book.


    Isaiah 6:8

    And I heard the voice of the L--rd saying: ?Whom shall I send, and who will go for us??....

    Isaiah heard G--d asking His angels this question, for he was also envisioning a heavenly court in session:

    Isaiah 6:1--2

    The year King Uzziah died, I saw the L--rd sitting upon a throne high and borne aloft, and His train filled the Temple. Above Him stood the seraphim [angels]; each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.


    Genesis 3:22

    Then the L--rd, G--d, said: ?Behold the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil?.?

    Here, also, G--d was addressing His court of angels, for immediately afterward we read what action the court took against Adam:

    Genesis 3:24

    He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubs, and the flaming swords, which turned every way, guarding the way to the tree of life.

    It is written that ?He drove out? and ?He placed,? and not they, because the final action was taken by G--d alone. Similarly:

    1.

    Genesis 1:26

    And G--d said: ?Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....?

    Genesis 1:27

    So G--d created man in His own image, in the image of G--d He created him; male and female He created them.

    Isaiah 45:12

    I have made the earth and created man upon it; I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    2.

    Genesis 11:6--7

    And the L--rd said: ??Come, let us go down and confound their language there, that they may not understand one another's speech.?

    Genesis 11:8

    So the L--rd scattered them abroad from there upon the face of all the earth; and they ceased to build the city.

    Even though all of the above italicized verbs in the original Hebrew are singular, missionaries maintain that the term ?us? is to be understood as G--d speaking to Jesus and the ?holy ghost.?

    Yet the Hebrew Bible insists that G--d is One, Unique and Alone:

    Deuteronomy 4:39

    ?know, therefore, this day, and consider it in your heart, that the L--rd is G--d in heaven above and on earth beneath; there is none else.

    Deuteronomy 32:39

    See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no G--d besides Me.?

    Isaiah 40:25

    ?To whom then will you liken Me, that I will be equal?? says the Holy One.

    Isaiah 43:10

    ...before Me no G--d was formed, neither shall any be after Me.

    Isaiah 44:6

    ...I am the First, and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no G--d.

    Isaiah 44:24

    ?I am the L--rd, Who makes all things; Who stretched forth the heavens alone; Who spread abroad the earth by Myself.

    Isaiah 45:18

    For thus says the L--rd, Who created the heavens??I am the L--rd and there is none else.?

    The New Testament itself precludes the possibility of Jesus being part of an eternal trinity, for it states that he was created:

    Colossians 1:15

    [Jesus] is the image of the invisible G--d, the first born of all creation....

    Quite shockingly, the New Testament depicts not Jesus but Melchizedek, the king of Salem in the time of Abraham (Genesis 14:18), as an eternal divine being:

    Hebrews 7:3

    He is without father, without mother, without genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of G--d, he continues a priest forever.

    According to the New Testament then, this king would make a better candidate for the trinity. After all:

    Melchizedek is without father or mother, whereas everyone agrees that Jesus had a mother.

    Melchizedek had no ancestors, whereas Jesus was supposedly descended from King David (Matthew 1:1--16).

    Melchizedek is said to have had no origin, existing eternally whereas Jesus had a beginning when he was created.

    This is not the only surprising statement in the New Testament. For example:

    Matthew 27:51--53

    And behold, the curtain of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep arose, and came out of the tombs after his resurrection, and went into the holy city and appeared to many.

    Had this event actually occurred, every nation's chronicles would be filled with awe--inspiring, detailed descriptions of the attendant hysteria and happiness as countless people rose from the dead and reunited with their families and friends. Yet aside from this passage in the New Testament, silence is all that has been handed down to us.

    Mathew 2:16

    Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under,...

    Again, a holocaust of such dimensions involving untold numbers of innocent babies and infants would not have gone unreported by the Talmudic sages, Josephus and the other ancient historians. Even the book of Luke, which also discusses the infancy of Jesus says nothing of it. The reason for this is that it did not happen. See page 165.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Devon said:

    Yet the Hebrew Bible insists that G--d is One, Unique and Alone:

    Deuteronomy 4:39

    ?know, therefore, this day, and consider it in your heart, that the L--rd is G--d in heaven above and on earth beneath; there is none else.

    Deuteronomy 32:39

    See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no G--d besides Me.?

    Isaiah 40:25

    ?To whom then will you liken Me, that I will be equal?? says the Holy One.

    Isaiah 43:10

    ...before Me no G--d was formed, neither shall any be after Me.

    Isaiah 44:6

    ...I am the First, and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no G--d.

    Isaiah 44:24

    ?I am the L--rd, Who makes all things; Who stretched forth the heavens alone; Who spread abroad the earth by Myself.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the L--rd, Who created the heavens??I am the L--rd and there is none else.?

    Devon, the Trinity doctrine teaches that YHWH is the Lord and that He alone is God in full agreement with these verses.

  • herk
    herk

    Hooberus,

    Your argument has been rejected by most trinitarian scholars. Note, for example, the following footnotes in The NIV Study Bible:

    • Genesis 1:1: God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.
    • Genesis 1:26: us ... our ... our. God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also 1Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18).
    • Genesis 3:22: us. See note on 1:26.
    • Genesis 11:7: let us. See notes on 1:1,26.
    • Isaiah 6:8: for us. The heavenly King speaks in the divine council. As a true prophet, Isaiah is made privy to that council, as were Micaiah (1 Ki 22:19-20) and Jeremiah (23:18,22). Cf. Ge 1:26; 11:7; Am 3:7.

    Your argument regarding Genesis 19:24 is also a bit of a stretch. The expressions "fire from the Lord" and "fire of the Lord" appear often in the writings of Moses. (Ge 19:24; Le 10:2; Nu 11:1, 3; 16:35; 26:10) It is a very weak point, indeed, to say that two persons of a triune god are meant simply because "the Lord" speaks of "fire from the Lord." Your example illustrates that some trinitarians often strain and struggle to an unreasonable extent in order to find evidence that they desperately need for support of their very weak case.

    Herk

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Genesis 1:1: God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.

    Re: Genesis 1:26 Robert Morey comments ". . . some anti-Trinitarians have attempted to dismiss the passage as an example of the plural of majesty (pluralis majestaticus), much like Queen Victoria of England who is reported to have said, "We are not amused." The only problem with this argument is that there was no plural of majesty in the Hebrew Language in biblical times. . . . The fundamental error resided in the attempt to take a modern monarchical idiosyncrasy and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time." p. 94-95 The Trinity: Evidence and Issues 1996

    Genesis 1:26: us ... our ... our. God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also 1Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18).

    The problem with this argument is that it makes "the members of his heavenly court" co-creators of man along with God ("Let us make"). Thus, you end up with God and angels together creating man. However, verses following Genesis 1:26 such as Genesis 1:27; Genesis 5:1;and Malachi 2:10 strongly indicate that God alone was the creator of man.

    "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27

    "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;" Genesis 5:1

    "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? " Malachi 2:10

    I think that Genesis 1:26 (especially when compared to Genesis 1:27 and 5:1) is best explained as being reflective of plurality of persons within the one God. This is still completely monotheistic, and is inline with other passages.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Agreed with Morey on the plural of majesty.

    But the NIV footnote, as quoted by herk, gives a different (and contradictory) explanation:

    God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also 1Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18).

    Interestingly, this concept of the "heavenly court" is directly derived from the Canaanite "assembly of the gods", presided by the supreme god El, which is depicted in several Ugarit (Ras Shamra) texts (a concept very similar to the Greek Olympus).

    Trying to edit as quickly as Hooberus: the phrase "in the image of God" (1:27b; 5:1) can be translated "in the image of the gods" just as well. My guess is that we have a monotheist redaction struggling with older polytheistic tradition (implying men, also in the plural in 1:27d, after the image of gods).

    See also, for a similar redactional wrestling, the distorted parallelism in Proverbs 9:10 (fear of Yhwh // knowledge of the Holy ones, cf. 30:3, nor I have knowledge of the Holy ones).

  • herk
    herk

    Hooberus,

    Morey says: "The only problem with this argument is that there was no plural of majesty in the Hebrew Language in biblical times." The same argument can be stated even more forcefully against the idea that God in the Hebrew Language was a plurality of persons. Those who spoke Hebrew in biblical times did not worship a triune God. The Hebrew shema emphatically states that "the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6:4; Mr. 12:29) He is not three Lords. He is "one Lord." Until this day the Jews vehemently reject the concept of God being a trinity.

    As shown by Gordon J. Wenham in Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, p. 27, "Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author."

    Morey also says concerning the plural of majesty: "The fundamental error resided in the attempt to take a modern monarchical idiosyncrasy and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time." It is also a "fundamental error" to attempt to take the trinity concept of centuries later "and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time."

    There is no need for guesswork in identifying who God was speaking to when he said ?us" and "our.? Just a few chapters later, God said "the man has become like one of us," and the context mentions other heavenly persons, the cherubim. (Gen. 3:22-24) In the beginning of the sixth chapter of Isaiah, there is a similar passage describing God as he converses with other heavenly persons, the seraphim:

    In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew . . . Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, ?Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?? Then I said, ?Here am I! Send me.? (Isaiah 6:1, 8)

    Typical of trinitarians, you show no hesitation to distort and stretch the truth in an effort to prove your point. Why are you so eager to label the members of God's heavenly court as "co-creators" simply because they were present and working along with him in the carrying out of his purpose? Are we also God because the Bible calls us "God's fellow workers"? (1 Co. 3:9; 2 Co. 6:1)

    Daniel 7:10 says "Thousands upon thousands were attending him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before him." It is inconceivable that these heavenly hosts were ignored during the founding of the earth and when humans were created, "when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." (Job 38:7; comp. Job 1:6.) Note Psalm 103:20, 21: "Bless the Lord, you his angels, mighty in strength, who perform his word, obeying the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all you his hosts, you who serve him, doing his will." Can you imagine them sitting around and doing nothing when God said, "Let there be light," "Let there be an expanse," and "Let us make man"? (Gen. 1, 2) They "perform his word, obeying the voice of his word." They "serve him, doing his will." Still, there is no basis for claiming they are "co-creators." They gave support and assistance, but God deserves the credit and glory. "Are they not all ministering spirits?" (Heb. 1:14)

    You quoted Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." If God is a Trinity, and we were created in the image of God, why are we not also each a trinity? Where is the individual on earth who is composed of three distinct persons? Scripturally speaking, the fact that none of us is a triunity of persons bears out the fact that God is also not a triunity of persons.

    Herk

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Hear O Israel The Lord Our God is One God Three in One Gods

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    Pull up a chair and bring your lunch. This argument is now in it 1800th year.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    As I have just replied to littletoe in another thread I will stop posting on the trinity - it has become boring and a cliche

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Willyloman says it all ..... ((yawn))

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