This is worth reading.
A very public death: http://www.thetimes.co.uk
Englishman.
..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing 272 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
WildHorses
Jan,
Point taken. Do you have any ideas of how we can make the prison systems any better?
You know, if we the people would get more involved in how the country is run. Maybe we could cheange things. The problem is that no one wan't to get involved and then they complain when things do not go the way they wish them to. I am willing to get involved in order to make a difference. -
SixofNine
Crossroads, why do you never mention David Koresh when talking about the tragedy in Waco? Seems like he was a key player. In fact, it seems he was THE key player. You act as if he wasn't even there. Are you crazy? I mean seriously, are you crazy? Tim McViegh was crazy.
It makes him not one bit less reprehensable, but he was crazy. Then again, so was David Koresh.
You egg on people even more mentally unstable than yourself, and before you know it, some father on his way to work hears that the downtown building that houses his child's daycare, has been virtually blown off the face of the earth. Thank you Crossroads, your compassion and humanity are shining through. You don't deserve the earphones you listen to Bob Dylan through.
-
crossroads
SIX----you are right I haven't mentioned Franz, Rutherford,
Knorr, Manson, or Koresh they are all cult leaders as far
as WE have been told McVeigh acted alone.Tell me my friend which SIX of the people I just mentioned
has destroyed more lives.As far as me listening to Dylan or Seeger I still think
the government upholds the 1st amendment but beware
that could be next. Good ol' tipper and her well meaning
crowd got warning labels on music if you haven't noticed,
So Walmart(there are others) the biggest outlet in the
country won't sell those CD's with warning labels.
HMMMMMMM---I wonder how many modern Dylan's voice's
they are shutting up. BTW well HE's dead too but you
should listen to some of TU PAC'S stuff what a poet
what a voice come on six tell me you are not against
the 1st amendment TOO. -
crossroads
Oh Six one thing I forgot "I egg on people" to do what
may I ask? If you haven't noticed I'm a pacifist. I don't
believe in killing anyone. I want us all to hold hands
and help our brothers I no longer want to ask
---WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWES GONE?---------
Sorry our generation did not live out it's DREAM. That
doesn't mean a new generation can't find the dream
WE lost and bring it to REALITY -
Amazing
HI Crossroads and others: McVeigh did not act alone. He worked with Terry Nicholes in obtaining and building the bombs. Terry sympathized with McVeigh's views. As far as I know, McVeigh was not involved in any private militia. The vast majority of private militias are rational, and would not participate in the cold blooded murder of innocent people.
McVeigh's receiving the 'Last Rites' was strictly a religious ritual, nit because he was physically or mentally ill. He acted with malice of forethought, planning, and exhibited no regard for innocent people. His experiences as a soldier in the Gulf War are no excuse. Soldiers are taught to obey 'legitimate' orders and to not harm innocent civiliams. Otherwise, the 500,000 US military people coming back from that war would have been doing all kinds of crazy things. McVeigh was an enigma.
As for Koresh and the Branch DIvidian, some Baptist ministers almost had Koresh tlaked into surrendering. They were good at using the Bible to get Koresh to come around. But, the trigger-happy FBI under Reno decided not to wait. Koresh and his bullies lite the fires that killed the children, but they were pushed into it needlessly. McVeigh's concerns are shared by many Amaericans. But ...
McVeigh crossed a serious boundary when he decided to harm innocent people to get back at the US government. I support his execution as an act of justice. When he brutally slaughtered innocent men, women, children, and babies, he forfieted any right to life he might have claimed. I am saddened by his execution, but I also feel as good about it now as I did before they injected him.
In cases like McVeigh's, it is not revenge to execute him. It does NOT make us as bad as him, but rather it shows that we have enough spine and interstinal fortitude to stand up to these killers and send them packing into God's hands. Execution is not a deterant any more than prison or even the law itself. The deterant, if any, would be what was planted in McVeigh's heart when he was growing up.
Execution in cases where we are 100% certain of guilt, where the accused is not mentally challenged, where the act is heineous, claculated, cold blooded, pre-meditated, with malice of forthought, and where the killer admits guilt with pride and arrogance ... then there is only one choice in my mind ... execute the son-of-a-bitch.
Amazing
-
slipnslidemaster
An eye for an eye.
Slipnslidemaster: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein -
SixofNine
Koresh and his bullies lite the fires that killed the children, but they were pushed into it needlessly.
Sorry, Amazing, I can't let this one go. No one can "push" you into lighting up children, your own children even. David Koresh, worthless pimple on the ass of humanity, WANTED to do that.
He, and the adults working with him, bear TOTAL responsibility. Mistakes, even tragic, stupid F***ups on the part of the government are NOT to be blamed (that would be rediculous). This was all put into place by one evil, mean, worthless muthaf*****/religious nut.
He was, no doubt, sincere.
-
SixofNine
I need to reevaluate what I said in the post just above. I said:
No one can "push" you into lighting up children, your own children even. David Koresh, worthless pimple on the ass of humanity, WANTED to do that.
On the one hand, I know enough about David Koresh to know that a firey conflagration was his idea of Gods Will for him. And so it happened.
On the other hand, my first statement; I guess all of us here had been raised up to, or talked into, being willing to sacrifice our childrens lives on the alter of alternate scriptural interpretation. I know I was ready to do that. I'm ashamed of it, but it is true. I guess the analogy to Koresh's followers is closer than I'd like to admit.
-
Abaddon
Well SlayerLayer, as a tree-hugging hippie I love people who support the death penalty as much as those who don't.
It's just they piss me off. Tough love I guess. ;-)
Oh, and you did say "Call me an insensitive prick." So I did.
8-)
As regards the death penalty; you were bought up in a country where they kill people judicially. You think it's okay, just like many Saudi's think chopping hands off for theft is okay, or burying a woman up to her head in the sand and then chucking stones at her if she commits adultery is okay, just like some Spaniards think throwing goats out of church towers during religous festivals is okay. You have been brutalised by your environment.
You might disagree, but you would, just like a JW would disagree that not giving blood to a baby that needed a blood transfusion was callous.
As stated earlier, in 1948 the German government abolished the death penalty. The majority of the country were still in favour of it. Now, growing up in an environment where killing is considered bad, no matter who does it, only about 15% of the German population agree with the death penalty.
It has nothing to do with hugging trees, and a lot to do with where and when you grew up.
So, you are a product of your environment and I am a product of mine. I'm not bad for opposing the death penalty, and you are not bad for supporting it.
Sorry about the miss call regarding musical tastes; you look like (if that is you) someone I knew who was THE death-metal cliche boy.
However, although Buffy (in the latest season) is now a woman instead of an ickkle (butt-kicking) girl, I still think that Willow is way cuter, so whilsy your taste in music might be vindicated your taste in women and punishment is dubious.
;-)
If killing is wrong, killing is wrong, it really is that simple (if you are bought up that way). If not, well, your grandchildren will look back and shake their heads, as they will feel the way that I and most of Europe does. It is inevitable.