McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing 272 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Of course innocents are in danger from people such as yourself. If your attitude taks hold, innoncent people will die.

    As for what murder means, yes I was using a loaded word deliberately. I find it defined as:

    1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
    2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.

    Death penalty in a country outside the U.S., China, Iran, etc. is murder for it would be unlawful. In the U.S., it is lawful in some states, so in those states they are technically mere killers, not murderers. By the second definition, I think they are all murderers, for taking another life is inhumane, in my opinion.

    As for fearing an executioner who happened to live next door, I wouldn't. I would know their killing would be directed at others. But I would view what they did for a living as wrong.

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Why do social activists necessarily OPPOSE the death penalty for wanton serial killers or someone like McVeigh?

    Because when you believe in a principle, you stick to that principle. If you start making exceptions, it's not much of a principle to begin with.

    It's sort of like free speech. Everyone is in favor of free speech, but not HIS free speech because his speech is just so icky! Until you can get to the point of defending the right of someone to speak even something you find despicable, it's not much of a principle.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    Of course innocents are in danger from people such as yourself. If your attitude taks hold, innoncent people will die.

    I could take you through this word for word, but I don't want to. You are an intelligent person. A very intelligent person. I want you to figure out a way that a person could have MY attitude, and innocents will NOT die.

    It isn't hard, and when you have done the work of figuring that out, you will not come back here and refute me when I say, loudly this time, INNOCENTS ARE NOT IN DANGER FROM ME.

    I work this point so hard, because I am indeed concerned with the life of the innocent.

  • JanH
    JanH

    Ros,

    Of the four or so nations that you mention who enforce the death penalty, isn't it true that crime is very low in those other nations (China and the Arabic nations?)

    Reporting is sparse to non-existent. Those numbers that are reported are very low, which indicates they are very incomplete.

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • JanH
    JanH

    6of9,

    I want you to figure out a way that a person could have MY attitude, and innocents will NOT die.

    That is impossible. If you have a death penalty, you will have to accept that some innocent people will be executed. If you don't understand this simple fact, you understand little indeed.

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • rutht
    rutht

    Seeker,

    Are you saying that it would be ok for an adult to stand before a group of children and spout the "F" word simply because he/she has free speech to do so?
    rutht

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Wendy: I appreciate your comments. I want to add some additional perspective on this:

    You said, "So then we go to what Amazing brought out, McVeigh did admit to this. Ok so now what? He is injected with a medicine and dies in 2-10 minutes. He never has to think about what he did again(as far as we know)."

    And, sitting and thinking about what he did for the next 40 years in a jail cell will accomplish nothing either. he will not be giving talks, and warning youth to avoid his thinking patterns. Rather after 40 years, he will die and his thoughts with him. In jail, there is no life ... just day to day existence hoping you will not be beat up, raped, or have your food taken.

    You continued, "The families of the lost ones, now will be satisfied in their hearts, that the man is dead? Rejoicing that "justice" was served."

    No one I know of will rejoice that this man is executed. I would rather he had not committed the crime. I would rather that the mangled bodies of women and babies were alive and whole again. Where is the justice in his being able to wipe these innocent people out and then sit in a jail cell? Prison hardens people a vast majority of the time. They do not normally develop repentance. And even if they do repent, they have no life, no hope, and no prospect of benefiting from any act of repentance.

    You continued, "That seems so inhuman, well, maybe I should say human. I for one can honestly say, I will never rejoice when I see a human die. There is a loss for someone, somewhere when this happens. I could go on and on, but I won't"

    I see nothing inhuman about justice, where it is properly applied. I do not advocate the death penalty as a normal use of justice, but only in clear cases where guilt is 100% certain and the crime is of a level that there can be no other way to satisfy justice.

    According to many Christians, God himself was willing to kill Adam & Eve over a piece of fruit, and also condemn billions of humans to suffering and death. So, I think the human system of justice in the limited cases of people like McVeigh is far more compassionate and felxible than condemning an entire race over a piece of silly fruit.

    I do not see this as an 'eye-for-eye' as you suggested above. Otherwise McVeigh would have to be blown to bits by a bomb 168 times. The justice here is not about like-for-like, but about a man who wantonly murdered innocent babies, children, women, men, fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, brothers and sisters. He forfeited his life or any claim thereto.

    I will feel sad and ill when they execute him, even with the compassionate lethal injection. It is at this moment I hope his thoughts focus on his terrible crime, and that his regret if full, and let God do the final act of forgiveness.

    Amazing

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Are you saying that it would be ok for an adult to stand before a group of children and spout the "F" word simply because he/she has free speech to do so?

    I believe it would be wrong to do so. But I would not make it illegal, or take away that person's free speech rights. But if they chose to exercise those rights in that manner, I would take them aside and explain why it was rude to do it.

    Of course, I have no problem with language, and see nothing wrong with children hearing language (they do anyway). But I recognize that some parents do care, and I respect their rights to set limits for their own children. Anyone who deliberately violated those parent's rights I would ask them to stop.

    But to make a law about it would go too far, and that is my point. Principles stand, even in extreme circumstances.

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    In jail, there is no life ... just day to day existence hoping you will not be beat up, raped, or have your food taken.

    Right, and why the forces of vengeance don't grasp this point is beyond me. This is the way to punish the guy!

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Hey Everybody:

    I think this guy should be left to rot in general population w/ no protection whatsoever for what he did. In my opinion killing him just furthers his own sick, wacked out, militia, redneck agenda. He wants to be a matyr for his cause, and by using the death penalty in this instance they are only serving to advance his interests. Let him rot and be raped.

    ONE...

    Bigboi

    "it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia

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