McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing 272 Replies latest jw friends

crossroads

Why is everyone saying McVeigh is a sick individual.
Didn't our most famous forefather say if the citizens
of the country do not have a revulotion every 25 years
then we are not doing are job.Seems McVeigh thought
it was time: is that sick.As far as some saying INNOCENT
people died in the bombing that is true. Tell me how many
INNOCENT people died the night the U.S. bombed
Baghdad all for the fear of losing OIL.Lives for oil yes
we precious americans can not live with out oil. Give me
OIL the hell with lives these people aren't really people
any way and there lives suck. BTW that sick individual
McVeigh was decorated over there made a shot to blow
a mans head off that they still talk about.HMMMMM He
could kill so we could fill up our tanks but not to uphold
the constitution that HE saw being tore apart.Something
is sick about this but I really can't point my finger at
McVeigh.[please I don't want your CBS comments about
what there leader was doing puke:we and the other nations
were there for the OIL thats it-----not for the people because
they are not people as far as we are concerned].
Now some people commented about what if it was your
child. Well must say if I caught McVeigh that day and my
child had died I would have tried to kill him too. The only
reason worth killing for is to protect your family----Since
I would have failed at this I would have taken my VENGENCE
out on the person who did it. BUT BUT the STATE has no
emotional ties to the event one way or the other. The STATE
also says KILLING is wrong-Tim was wrong and I too would
have been wrong if I killed McVeigh that day.So if the STATE
says KILLING is wrong how come it is OK for them to do it.?
I know this must have something to do with this God of
Old Testament.
Amazing most of if not all treaties were broken by the white
man not red. I believe if we let them have THEIR good land
and kept the crap for us they would not have fought. But hey
they were lower than dogs they didn't need the good land,
or even food to eat----thats why the buffalo disappeared or
didn't you know that. As for the bomb Japan was out of fuel.
They had no airforce our bombers went in without a fight.
There navy was for the most part in dock. NO FUEL.
Stallin was going to invade mainland Japan first and this
my brother we could not let happen. So we BOMBED
Killing McVeigh is wrong all killing is wrong nothing will
change on monday.
Some words from THE N.Y. Poet
This is no time for Celebration
This is no time for shaking hands
This is no time for Backslapping This is no time for Marching Bands
This is no time for Optimism
This is no time for Endless Thought
This is no Time for my country Right or Wrong
Remember what that brought
This is no time for Congratullations
This is no time to Turn Your Back
This is no time for Circumlocution
This is no time for Learned Speech
This is no time to Count Your Blessings
This is no time for Private Gain
This is a time to Put Up or Shut Up
It won't come back this way again
This is no time to Swallow Anger
This is no time to Ignore Hate
This is no time to be Acting Frivolous
Because the time is getting late
This is no time for Private Vendettas
This is no time to not know who you are
Self knowledge is a dangerous thing
The freedom of who you are
This is no time to Ignore Warnings
This is no time to turn to Clear the Plate
Let's not be sorry after the fact
And let the past become our fate
This is no time to turn away and drink
Or smoke some vials of crack
This is a time to gather force
And take dead aim and Attack This is no time for Celebration
This is no time for Saluting Flags
This is no time for inner Searchings
The future is at hand
This is no time for Phony Rhetoric
This is no time for Political Speech
This is a time for Action
Because the future's Within Reach
This is the time
LOU REED

Wouldn't it make the government stand up and take notice
if we all hug our flags(the good witnesse's we our)
at half mast on monday. Or better yet We all hold hands
from coast to coast and start singing DA-WHOO-DORIS-DA
WHOO-DORIS like the people from Whoville. Wouldn't they
take notice could it be a start of a Peaceful Revolution.
"Some men see things as they are and say why
I dream things that never were and say why not"
BOBBY
Peace and Love
Mark
Englishman

Farkel,
Brilliant! The most avid supporters of the death penalty are, indeed, non other than Jehovah's witnesses, who, more than an other group, cheapen life to being a privelege to which we are not entitled.
Please also note that YK, Friday and Fred Hall have scuttled behind the woodwork whilst those of us who are more enlightened have had the courage to debate this issue.
One wonders how YK will fit this subject into his amusing "Down with Apostates!" sketches now that those of us who have a greater degree of maturity and experience are able to reconcile our differences in an amiable manner.
Englishman.
..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
COMF

In jail, there is no life ... just day to day existence hoping you will not be beat up, raped, or have your food taken.
You sure don't know much about prison, Amazing. It is called prison, by the way. Jail is where you stay for a short time under the watchful eye of the poh-leece or the sheriff's deputies, waiting to go to court or sitting out a sentence for contempt of court, or doing weekend penance for that second DWI charge over a period of a few months. Prison is where you go after you're convicted of a crime like murder and sentenced to 30 years. There is a difference.
In prison, you only endure the kinds of worries you mentioned concerning rape and violence, if you are a moral person striving to maintain his morals inside. If you are such a moral person, then you do not wish to do harm to others or to infringe upon their rights; and so you cannot bring yourself to join one of the gangs that exist inside, such as the Aryan Brotherhood or the Mexican Mafia. And because you are too "moral" to join a gang, you may stand to lose your food, peace of mind and anal-virginity. But if you have any connections at all with one of these groups, you will be welcomed and made at home. If you have strong connections, you will live a comfortable life, being supplied with cigarettes, liquor, drugs and sex in adequate doses. You will be able to run your business from inside, passing orders to your flunkies on the outside through both visitors and those prison employees who are owned by your gang. With enough rank in the gang, you can even order hits upon enemies outside who get on your nerves.
That "day to day existence" notion is just that... a notion.
COMF
digderidoo

Quote,
' None of this gave McVeigh the excuse to commit the murders that he did in the name of his cause... so, he is scheduled to die on Monday... and i cast my support with his execution......'
No, he has no excuse to commit murder, there is never an excuse to commit murder!!!....why should the state be allowed to do that very same thing....who has the right to say that it is okay to now commit murder...
because he killed a fellow human???
Quote,
' I believe that he deserves the death penalty'...you fail to say WHY????
By giving the death penalty as a punishment, are we not then becoming as low as this human being???
Yours dig
Think not about trying to add days to your life, but instead think about adding life to your days.
patio34

My opinion is to agree with most of you. You see, the problem I have is the inability to form an original opinion of my own--after having been a jw for 28 years (only 3 months out).
Amazing has said a lot about justice, but who defines what justice is? That is a non-answer because it seems ill-defined and is given as a definitive answer.
Probably I don't think anyone has the right to take human life. However, I do think a nation has the right and duty to defend itself against agressors.
But what is the harm in imprisoning a felon for their entire life if necessary? Amazing, your point about prisons being so cruel seems, again, not well founded. Then, if taken to its logical conclusion, do you feel NO ONE should be imprisoned? Not likely.
It does seem to me to be revenge, not justice (vague and subject to current laws) that is the motive for executions. This country certainly has the wherewithal to life imprisonment.
Well, it seems I have formulated an original opinion outside the WTS after all. No, executions are not justice, they are anachronistic and cruel.
However, to reiterate, a nation does have the right to defend itself in war, and that includes taking of life.
Pat
patio34

Another quick thought. How is killing someone because they killed someone different than hitting a child because they hit someone. In these sorts of things you don't fight fire with fire.
Even comparing executions to the bible executions doesn't work because the Hebrews executed adulterers, thieves, stubborn rebellious CHILDREN, ad nauseum.
Certainly, no one is clamoring for a return to such barbarism today in all those other cases. No, the Bible is not a good standard in that instance.
Pat
SixofNine

By giving the death penalty as a punishment, are we not then becoming as low as this human being???
Not even close. You know that as keenly as I do. And frankly, those who are suggesting that, don't believe it for a second. So why keep saying it? It is a rediculous assertion, made by people more interested in winning an argument than winning it on logical grounds.
No one would view an executioner with the same disdain that you would a murderer, rapist, or pedophile. Not even the disdain you would have for an extortioner for that matter.
ros

Okay, how about this for a solution on whether or not to have the death penalty:
Submit the issue of capital punishment for PROVEN wanton murderers to popular vote of the citizens--with one caveat:
If the death penalty were voted out, only those who voted against it would be taxed for the construction, housing, employment of guards, cooks, utilities, medical expenses, etc. etc. to keep them. Anyone who voted for the death penalty would not be taxed for the livlihood of PROVEN wanton murderers.
I would be agreeable to the abolition of the death penalty for PROVEN wanton murderers on those terms.
Farkel

Greetings ros,
It's good to see you posting on this board.
: If the death penalty were voted out, only those who voted against it would be taxed for the construction, housing, employment of guards, cooks, utilities, medical expenses, etc. etc. to keep them
In the USA it costs over one million dollars on average to execute someone. That includes court-appointed attorneys for the defendent through the whole series of appeals, the death apparatus and administration, autopsy and a whole bunch of other costs.
You will not find one knowledgeable person that will tell you it currently costs less to execute a twenty year old murderer than it doesn to put him in prison for the rest of his life. It costs between five and ten times AS much to go through the execution process.
Farkel
ros

Hi, Farkel:
If what you say is true, then I would be neutral on the issue. I definitely draw a sharp moral distinction between thrill-murder and execution. Execution not revenge. Most of the people involved in the trial and execution of a murderer had no personal involvement for revenge. Revenge would be, in McVeigh's case, since he blew up the Federal building killing innocent people and children, causing indiscribeable grief to their families and relatives, we would have the homes of his relatives blown up to cause him the same kind of grief. That would be revenge on McVeigh. Swatting a fly is killing, but it is not murder. Executing a wanton murderer of children is killing, but it is not murder. IMO.
However, let me say that my preference by far would be the penal colony on a remote island in the Pacific.
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

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