Is this Completely Apostate

by redline 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • redline
    redline

    I should have left awhile ago, especially since Amazing aptly replied about the Nov99 KM and the danger of these sites. Just because of the association, for obvious reasons. So I may be pushing the gray area a bit too far, but I will recluse back into my world soon.

    Copernicus: I knew when you mentioned forbidden fruit, you were doing so sarcastically, but it still applied well. The idea that if you start playing around with incorrect doctrine, eventually it can turn you, or myself. This is apparent from the mass of religions in the world today, no one can honestly say they are all correct. So with this in mind, are all false religions based purely on deliberate actions to deceive the people. Probably not, some I'm sure some are completely devout in their beliefs, and try to help others with pure intentions. This doesn't make it right, we are all held up to the same set of standards in the end, its not our choice. So this forbidden fruit was in lieu of the idea that it will still be destructive in the end for those who buy into it.

    Most of you were raised Witness and left for different reasons. Assuming that circumstances, or people involved either didn't meet to the expectations that you had ingrained. So you atr dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions. Some have lifestyles that were more openly accepted in other religious organizations, so it was beneficial to the conscience to move away from the strict guidelines of the Society.

    The theme I keep hearing is that the Society cautions about the use of the internet, or consorting with (for lack of a better word) apostates because of the dangers of enlightenment. You would all do the same if you felt that a dangerous group was talking to members of your family, because of the effects this may have. Now I am not saying dangerous in the physical sense, but in the overall-outcome it could have. Many people are credulous, easily intimidated, so its the position of others to help these people along. You can easily turn this point into some sort of Tyrannically control the Society has over the flock, but that would be missing the point. Like both you or I, we look out for our families and friends, and give points of council were mistakes can be easily made. Society does the same regarding the sheep, this is not a cunning deception, but a loving kindness. To turn this around and use it to imply the gullible nature of the people involved in the Organization would not apply well because of my stance with majority of you. Not in a bad way, but i'm saying that I have put myself into a position where I am alone, and without the insight of others with similar beliefs.

  • COMF
    COMF

    I'd be interested to know which ones among us you have identified. Would you please put specific names with each of these group statements?

    1. Most of you were raised Witness and left for different reasons. Assuming that circumstances, or people involved either didn't meet to the expectations that you had ingrained.

    Board users fitting this statement:

    2. Your dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions.

    Board users fitting this statement:

    3. Some have lifestyles that were more openly accepted in other religious organizations, so it was beneficial to the conscience to move away from the strict guidelines of the Society.

    Board users fitting this statement:

    You have actually ascertained that this is what really happened, right? You're not just tossing this out here as something your conditioning whipped out to explain away our words?

    COMF

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    ::Facilis descensus Averno

    (I've capped the A)

    Redline, I'm inferring from this quotation both sensitivity and concern, and maybe some book learning. If you take the time to read the stories of the folks who post here, you'll see a common thread: it is not their past gullibility but rather their anguish on finding out and ultimately admitting that an organization has deceived them.

    The path has been extremely painful for most; the "descent" not easy at all. For many it would have been easier to hang on. Finally out of the dark wood there is not Avernus, but the light, and the quiet joy of freedom.

    It's very simple: if the blind follow the blind, then both fall into the ditch.

    Right now you are a follower following followers following followers. It's not about minutiae. If you stick with the organization, you will eventually remember my words a few years down the pike.

    Maximus

  • redline
    redline

    1. Most of you were raised Witness and left for different reasons. Assuming that circumstances, or people involved either didn't meet to the expectations that you had ingrained.

    Board users fitting this statement:
    Almost everyone here (e.g. waiting, RedhorseWoman etc.)

    2. Your dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions.

    Board users fitting this statement:
    Again almost everyone here.
    Amazing - Waiting - Patio34 - Had Enough - COMF.

    3. Some have lifestyles that were more openly accepted in other religious organizations, so it was beneficial to the conscience to move away from the strict guidelines of the Society.

    Board users fitting this statement:
    This was in reference to the sexual orientation of some, listed in other posts.

    "You have actually ascertained that this is what really happened, right? You're not just tossing this out here as something your conditioning whipped out to explain away our words?"

    Most of what I stated in the last post was not in reference to anyone particularly, but was summarizing over what I was hearing back from many people. Since there are lots of replies, and only me on this side, it makes it difficult to pick out certain people in particular, although I have tried in certain instances.

    I have the same thought regarding your beliefs, seems we both feel the same way, and since we both can't be right..

    I am intrigued by most comments here, and do feel concern and warmth for some here. This is now merely a conversation, not an attack, I do understand that many people have gone through difficult times. I do not wish to upset anyone, my stance had changed some from prior replies, but in the case or Religious Beliefs you cannot sugar coat it to protect the feelings of others. So I am trying my best to keep this from being conversational, to argumentative.

  • TMS
    TMS

    Redline, COMF has nicely isolated some of your assumptions about this group:

    >"1. Most of you were raised Witness and left for different reasons. Assuming that circumstances, or people involved either didn't meet to the expectations that you had ingrained."
    ______________________________________________________________________

    I can only respond for myself, of course. Yes, I was raised a Witness, baptized in l953. I served as an elder for about 35 years, along with other duties. When my 21 yr old son was DF'd about 9 years ago, I felt it in his best interests to remain in my household. He was not, in ANY sense of the word, wicked, and I could not in good conscience treat him as such. The treatment my wife and I received subsequently was the beginning of the end for us. BTW, the care and support we have received the last several years from our "wicked" son is extremely rare and more than justified our decision.

    "2. Your dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions."
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Just hold Jehovah's Witness up to a very basic standard. After you've been in a few more years, reassess the "love they have among themselves."

    "3. Some have lifestyles that were more openly accepted in other religious organizations, so it was beneficial to the conscience to move away from the strict guidelines of the Society."
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Another religious organization? Never! Dear, that reminds me of the old N.H. Knorr(3rd president of the WTBS) quote: "If you want to commit adultery, go join the Catholic Church."

    TMS

  • somebody
    somebody

    Redline,

    "Time frames of the end were often constructed within the flock, not given directly from the society"

    Most of the comments used to point out the improbity of the Society, I've already heard and researched.

    I hope you stay and REALLY research what it is that you are a member of.

    "This chronology reckons that the first man Adam was created in the year 4004 before Christ, and so six thousand years of human existence on earth will end before this twentieth century ends, or in 1996 C.E. According to a more recent calculation of the Bible timetable, six thousand years of man's existence will end in the latter half of the year 1975, which is well within this century. The Bible millennium is ahead of us, and, according to the count of time and the events of world history, it is approaching. It is not ending, as Roman Catholic comments on the Bible would make us believe."--- April 15, 1967-- Watchtower

    "However, Bible chronology which indicates that Adam was created in the fall of the year 4026 B.C.E. would bring us down to the year 1975 C.E. as the date marking 6,000 years of human history with yet 1,000 years to come for Christ's Kingdom rule. So whatever the date for the end of this system, it is clear that the time left is reduced, with only approximately six years left until the end of 6,000 years of human history.(1 Cor. 7:29) " --- Watchtower--May 1, 1970

    "And now, as the critical year of 1975 enters, it may well be asked: Has the Most High God of prophecy made a name for himself? The answer is self-evident, Yes! By whom? Not by Christendom or by Jewry, but by Jehovah's Christian witnesses!"---- Watchtower-- December 15, 1974

    So rather then saturate myself with other peoples opinions, I usually stick with my own, and the Organization.

    What do you consider the "Organization"? I suppose the organization is not "other peoples" opinion? If not, then what is it?

    peace,
    somebody..."Jehovah is also the Great Exposer of false messengers. How does he expose them? He frustrates their signs and predictions. In this way he shows that they are self-appointed prognosticators, whose messages really spring from their own false reasoning- yes, their foolish fleshly thinking!" ---Watchtower--May 1, 1997

  • BugEye
    BugEye

    Hello Redline and welcome.

    Thank you for exposing your thoughts to us. It is interesting to note some generalisations that you make. And it is also interesting that you feel compelled to remain here against your better judgment. I welcome that you stay here and communicate with us and I hope that you can see here something of value.

    Many of the people in this forum are those whose lifestyles I would not accept for myself, but it is not my place nor yours to judge them.

    There are many points that indicate to me that the WTS is incorrect and more closely related to the sect of the Pharisees than Christ's followers.

    Enjoy your stay and please feel welcome to stick around a littel longer.

    BugEye

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Redline,

    Welcome to the discussion. I was disappointed in the way you opened the discussion, saying our lives were worthless, but glad to see you back up from that statement a bit.

    I believe Jehovah's Witnesses have many truths, but not all of them. I believe most Jehovah's Witnesses are good people trying to make their way in life as best they can and using the teachings of the society to help them do this and help them through the very difficult times.

    Where you and I differ is, that I believe this is true of all of humanity, not just the witnesses. I think we are all in this together, all of humanity and that we turn to God to help us through and to make our lives more meaningful. I think every time we help another person, we make our lives meaningful.

    Whether you decide to stay a witness or not is irrelevant. How your use your life, whether a witness or not, is what is important. Follow the fruitages of the holy spirit and follow Jesus' commandment to love both your neighbor and your enemy.

    I wish you peace.

    hugs

    Joel

  • Francois
    Francois

    Flip - Missed your irony altogether. A thousand pardons; may the fleas of a thousand camels invade my armpits; may the bird of paradise unilaterally establish a place of permanent abode in my left nostril; may the...

    Sorry. I don't usually miss irony.

    Francois

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi Redline.

    I am not an apostate. I can't be.

    To be an apostate would require a divinely inspired definiton of apostate.

    But the Bible is not inspired, so there is no divinely inspired definition of apostate.

    I say the Bible is not inspired because the Bible's account of the creation is contradicted by huge amounts of scientific data.

    If we look at just one detail, that of the existance of man, we find huge amount of evidence for human civilisation pre-dating Adam and Eve. Carbon 14, dendrochronolgy, loads. Museums full.

    The society distort the data so it looks suspect.

    If the account of Adam and Eve is not true, then the Bible is not inspired. It is man made and fallable.

    Of course, becasue of the mental conditioning you are subjet to you will probably reject this out of hand.

    I doubt if you have enough of a science background in your education to see the distortions the society make in their presentation of data. The conditioning you receive makes you reject outside advice.

    Therefore you are locked in a loop of not knowing enough to see where they are wrong, and refusing to take outside advice.

    I suggest you study a little so the cycle is broken. However, the society have set things up so that anyone who questions their version of events is viewed as an apostate.

    Truth does not have to hide in such ways. It stands up to investigation. If you believe you have the truth, prove it, investigate it, make it your own.

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