Is this Completely Apostate

by redline 61 Replies latest jw friends

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  logical

  ooops
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  thinkers wife

  Redline,
  I hope you are still here and reading!! First of I want to thank you for being here and changing from your beginning thoughts somewhat! I think by now you have recognized that there are some very good and caring people here, regardless of their religous leaning.
  There have been so many excellent things said here that I am not even sure I can add anything of value.
  I don't want to bore you but I think it is important for you to know a little of my background simply to give some credence to what I am about to say. I was born into the truth. Most of my immediate and extended family are still in it. My father has been pioneering for over forty years. My mother pioneered for several years until my siblings and I started coming along. She is pioneering again for several years since all have left the nest. I was well trained in the truth and pioneered regularly for over eight years and auxiliary pioneered on a regular basis for many more. I loved the concept of being able to help people and to save lives. I made it my business to be really good at teaching and as a result quite a few people are JW's.
  I married a Bethelite. We pioneered together. For almost seventeen years he abused me very badly. During those years he was a MS, Elder, and pioneer. When he left me in September of 1997, we lived behind the KH. The elders kicked me out. Let me re-emphasize, he left me. For many years I had put up with a variety of very unscriptural things from my husband and the elders and some of the other publishers. When I was seventeen I was molested by one of the annoited, he was privately reproved, I was publicly reproved. Even after all these things, and believe me these are only a few, I hung on.
  But one day I started thinking about John 13:35. This is taught to be one of the identifying marks of true Christianity. What would you use as a comparison to this scripture to judge whether or not a religion is true? It would have to be the people. There really couldn't be any other comparison.
  So after thiry-eight year of being an active witness, I made the hardest decision of my life. Having everything that I dearly believed in taken away from me and losing my family in addition to that.
  Once you look at that scripture and make an unbiased examination of the facts, there really is no going back. Only then did I start seeing many other things that did not fit Bible teaching. And do not think that this was a purposeful fault finding mission. Every single thing I learned came straight from the literature of the Witnesses, and every single fact hurt me deeply.
  So dear friend, think hard about learning. Do not be afraid.
  If you decide continuing to be a witness is for you, then so be it. If not know that you will not be alone. Please, think for yourself, let your heart be your guide!!
  TW
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  Frenchy

  Redline: Let me add my welcome to those of our fellow posters who have already done so. There is nothing to fear from an examination of the truth. Truth is exonerated and amplified by scrutiny, only falsehood need fear a close examination. A question I used to ask myself was: Why are we to go to doors and ask Catholics and Baptists, etc. (religions which are certainly ‘enemies’ of JW’s and without question would like to see the WTBS fall) questions and challenge their beliefs and yet are warned about speaking to someone once part of our ranks?

  I am second generation JW, well over thirty years since my baptism, served as a elder, presiding overseer of the congregation, circuit and district assignments and still in good standing with the congregation. I have children who are baptized witnesses as well as many other family members and friends. There are a lot of good people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  You have made some interesting comments and have received some interesting replies as a result. You said: [I[“Most of you were raised Witness and left for different reasons. Assuming that circumstances, or people involved either didn't meet to the expectations that you had ingrained.” I think that true enough. But I have to ask, those expectations that were ingrained, where did they come from?

  Again, you post: “So you atr (sic) dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions. Not so true this time, at least for most of the posters that I know here. The truth of the matter is that many here were very reluctant to leave even after discovering many disturbing facts about their religion. They left after being convinced by the evidence they eventually accumulated rather than leaving and then looking for justification as your statement supposes. Then I have to ask just what it is that you consider ‘minutia’? Should we not hold the Faithful and Discreet Slave to a higher standard than we do other religions? We are told by the Society that Christendom is more accountable before God because of it’s claim to Christianity. What is the claim made by the Society concerning it’s position and role given it by God? How many mistakes was Jesus allowed? How many mistakes is the Bible allowed?

  You posted: “Some have lifestyles that were more openly accepted in other religious organizations, so it was beneficial to the conscience to move away from the strict guidelines of the Society” This is true. I suppose that is the view that most of Jehovah’s Witnesses is when the word ‘apostate’ is mentioned in connection with those that no longer belong to the organization. It is not true of all who have left, however.

  Another interesting statement: “The theme I keep hearing is that the Society cautions about the use of the internet, or consorting with (for lack of a better word) apostates because of the dangers of enlightenment. You would all do the same if you felt that a dangerous group was talking to members of your family,”
  Good point. But isn’t that exactly what we, as JW’s do when we go out in service and someone politely informs us that they are Catholic or Baptist or Pentecostal? How do you think their pastors feel about us initiating calls at the homes of members of their flock for the express purpose of subverting THEIR faith and bring them into our own? No JW has any qualms about telling the householder that he used to belong to that particular religion but he found out that it was false and taught things that were not true. Why is turnabout not fair play in this instance?

  I’ll stop now because my thread is already too long as it is! Thank you in advance for your reply.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-[/i]
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  WildHorses

  Redline said "We are plagued with imperfections, and to continue to fault the whole because of the few is ignorant and unfair."

  Isn't that what the JW's are doing where the Catholic Chuch and other Churches are concerned?
  There is no Religion here on earth that is infalable. All fall short.
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  Englishman

  Redline,

  I stopped being a JW in 1972 because of 2 reasons:

  1) I ceased to believe that the WTBTS was part of Gods earthly organisation. I was proved right when nothing happened in 1975. End of story, JW's don't have the truth!

  2) I didn't like being a JW, the meetings bored me senseless, the door to door work was a real drag. As those are the main occupations of JW's it was a miracle (Ha Ha!) that I stayed in for 18 years. Plus, I couldn't abide having to be nice to people, some of whom I detested. I find more bon-homie in my local pub than in a Kingdom Hall.

  Englishman.

  ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
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  Copernicus

  Redline:

  You've responded to a couple of my posts specifically, so I'm writing once again. I understand that you’re being bombarded with information directed at you, and that it is impossible to reply to all of it. I did want to say that in your answers to my posts at least, you seem to be responding more to their content then their substance. I hope you know what I mean? It is not a criticism. Besides, it takes a while to get a feel for the emotions of others in this medium.

  About sifting through doctrines, you said:

  This doesn't make it right, we are all held up to the same set of standards in the end, its not our choice. So this forbidden fruit was in lieu of the idea that it will still be destructive in the end for those who buy into it.

  This is true. But, again, I’ll repeat my assertion that this analogy does not hold (in my mind). The Society is not a beneficent, all knowing God. It is instead an organization made up of imperfect humans (as you noted) who are driven by human motives. The Apostle Paul did not ask people to surrender their right to evaluate all sides of an issue, did he? When Jesus disciples had a question, did he tell them - don’t dare ask me to explain myself, I’m the son God. Of course not, yet this is the Society’s basic stance (that it is beyond or above being questioned), beyond preselected and carefully culled “Questions from Readers”. Believe me I know – I’ve tried to ask them.

  I will say it again, all is not right in Paradise.

  For instance, you mentioned “the end” in regards to love cooling off. Are we in the time of the end? And please don’t revert to the old “saying where is that promised presence of his?” think-stop. My research has shown that the Society’s chronology is a mere work of fiction. The fact that they are slowly dropping these teachings proves to me that they know it too. They have no idea were we are in the stream of time. Nor does anyone else. The “signs” we were taught to observe are without tangible manifestations as well, unless one insists on seeing more than is actually apparent. So then if we are not in fact in this “time of the end” – none of those scriptures or prophecies which the WTS applies to itself have any relevance, do they?

  Think about this and make an obvious application:

  Psalm 74:9 Our signs we have not seen; there is no prophet anymore, And there is no one with us knowing how long.

  Many people are credulous, easily intimidated, so its the position of others to help these people along.

  I can’t possibly think of you as being easily intimidated, so I’m going to recommend one of the best web sites I’ve found to research information on the Tower. You can see things there for yourself:

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm
  
  I’d also suggest that you read any of Ray Franz’s books. They expose the whole notion of a F&DS, as the sham it is. Though I know many witnesses who have continued association after reading these things.

  For years before your time the Society promised us that we had “accurate knowledge.” In fact, they claimed our salvation was dependent upon having it – and only they were the source of it. How sad the many recent changes appear to me from that perspective.

  Aspirat primo Fortuna labori – I wish you nothing but well in your efforts to find the truth, and that you find success in the spiritual journey that we must all undertake. You remind me of myself (long ago) and many fine young brothers that I’ve known over the years.

  The Society taught me good moral values, in return I gave them years of my life and thousands of dollars. I think we’re more then even.

  My e-mail is unlocked. Write anytime.

  Copernicus
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  Had Enough

  redline:

  I feel very much as Copernicus has just written.

  It is instead an organization made up of imperfect humans (as you noted) who are driven by human motives.

  
  Yes, and we were told that our spiritual maturity was gauged by our level of obediance to the FDS, the governing body, the ones commissioned to feed the sheep at the due time and that the GB was directed by God's holy spirit so who were we to question what God said.

  I believed that for over 40 years, put my complete trust in what they told us in the pubs. The excitement over dates did NOT come from us the lowly rank and file, but from Fred Franz and his writers down to the district overseers and circuit overseers. The fervour was whipped up by their talks not by our expectations running ahead of the org.

  The disappointment was, not that Armageddon didn't come when I and countless others expected it, but that those, who made us believe it was going to happen any day, were wrong and that was the beginning of my eyes looking at the org in a different light. They said they were God's spokesman so who was wrong, them or God? My answer was that they were not what they claimed to be.

  BUT you say of me:
  

  Your dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions.

  Sorry but you have judged me wrongly. You do not know my whole story just from a couple of posts. I did not WANT to find out anything to "justify leaving"...I did not WANT to leave...this was all I had ever known and I was still totally convinced we were the ONLY ones who had the "truth", even after my disappointment with their errors on dates.

  I had my dealings with unjust elders and shunning and could not reconcile that rule, with the scriptures, once I read the WHOLE chapter not just a verse here and there. That, and seeing alot more of injustice and unloving treatment, lead me to question just how much more were they wrong on, not to find fault to "justify" leaving, but to find answers, reasons to stay.

  Like Copericus said, Ray Franz's book was the real eye-opener for me. Even though I started reading it with the attitude that if it was full of lies like the society says, I would be able to pick them out. I'm not stupid and brain-dead...I can analyse statements to see their worth. Besides I wondered, if it was full of lies, why didn't the society set the record straight and tell people the truth about "his lies in the book", but they never answered any, using a lame excuse that it wasn't necessary etc.

  That book tells of things with proof, backing up any claims he makes, and is not full of hatred and sarcasm. Those events he told of, how the GB comes to their decisions on doctrine and many more events were so hard to take because of my complete and utter trust in this org. that I had to read it in intervals because I paced and cried and got angry and sad over and over again. My whole foundation was knocked out from under me.

  That was only the beginning. I was not looking for justification...I WANTED to find something wrong with what I was finding out, but I couldn't and I couldn't leave it alone because now I started to see that I had been fooled for so many years into thinking this was the ONLY true religion worshipping God the way He directed....but the proof against that belief just kept piling up until I no longer can deny what I have learned about the secrets of the org.

  This post is already to long to go into details, but if you start by looking at suggested sites from others here...go back several pages to find the JUSTICE #1 to #6 individual posts by Amazing to find his true experiences as an elder trying hard to do what was right but could no longer turn his back on the truth of the "truth".

  Search out what we have found before you judge why we are here.

  I come here because it hurt me so much to have to deal with what I have found and still am finding out, I just didn't know how to deal with it alone. Here I have found people who have experienced the same gut-wrenching feelings I have had and we help each other to cope and deal with it. I bawled writing my first post here with my story and I bawled at each outpouring of love and encouragement that answered me.

  I don't cry that much now, but the hurt is still there because of my family situation. That's why I and many others come here...to heal.

  I hope you stay longer as you seem to have a better heart condition than some of the other JWs who have come here just to "bash" us as they put it.

  I sign myself as Had Enough because that's exactly how I feel.

  Had Enough
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  thinker

  Hello Redline,
  Concerning those "awkward beliefs" that you called "minutia", I suggest you go to this site: http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/
  It's NOT apostate, only quotes from WT literature. No comments of any kind.
  I've never been a JW, and I don't understand how anyone could be after reading the quotes on this site. They are strange in ANY context!
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  Pathofthorns

  Every now and again, Redline a poster comes along such as yourself that is instantly likable, so welcome .

  I think it is probably because you didn't judge us too harshly and saw that many of the people here are actually nice people with hearts and are not the monsters that we were told we were.

  Most of us were where you are, we loved the "truth", we wanted it to be true. Most here do not hate JWs but just wished we had the COMPLETE picture presented to us and that is all we are doing here for the most part; presenting an HONEST and COMPLETE picture.

  I do hope you can take the time to read a few things. As has been said, Truth is never afraid of any honest and critical examination but rather welcomes it. You need to ask yourself why the fear and paranoia exists in questioning things. If you don't believe it exists, then why not ask an elder in a loud voice after your next meeting, what all the talk about 1975 was about, and then watch all the heads turn as the "apostate detectors" go off.

  I will admit that it is painful at first to learn certain things. But facts are facts, written in black and white by the Society. And what all these things mean and what you decide to do with them remains up to you.

  No one here insists that anyone leave JW's. Just that everyone should have the freedom to ask questions and have them answered honestly based on honest facts. Feel free to verify everything you read, every quote, in the publications at your KH library. It is very sad, but they are all true.

  I wish you all the best.

  Path
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  COMF

  redline said:
  

  2. Your dissecting the religion looking for imperfections and using this minutia as justification for your actions.

  Board users fitting this statement:
  Again almost everyone here.
  Amazing - Waiting - Patio34 - Had Enough - COMF.

  Well, redline, you certainly don't have any shortage of replies in this thread. There's more here than I care to read. That's why, if you choose not to answer my post, I'll understand; there's so very much here to answer.

  All the same, since you have made the claim about me personally, I am moved to call your bluff on it. Respond or don't, as you see fit; readers will draw their own conclusions.

  You say that I dissect the religion looking for imperfections. Please cite an example where I have done this.

  You say that I use the minutia I have found in this dissection as justification for my actions. Please cite an example where I have done this.

  If you are unable to do so, what does that make you?

  COMF