"I will tell you why you don't believe" (page 3)

Satanus

Abaddon

In both cases the person making the statement believes they have an insight on truth the other doesn't have.

Do you not believe that you also have an insight on truth which sirona doesn't have (and yours is better)?

SS

If someone knew better than me why i didn't believe the wt anymore, i would (mockingly) conclude that they were iether very smart, intuitive, have mind reading abilities, be inspired of god, or have other supernatural powers. Therefore, when i needed to know special secret information, such as what the weather will be like six months from now, what will happen in the stock markets, what other people around me are thinking, medical diagnoses and cure, or other super important stuff; i would be able to just ask them for all things that i need to know. What a blessing they are to mankind!

SS

cyber-sista

What I have been told is that you stop attending meetings you lose God's "holy spirit" and then you can no longer see "the truth." I have heard this for years--it is one of the "dangers" of not going to meetings. (another guilt and fear tactic)

When I told one sister I know from a former congregation that I was no longer attending meetings because of the things I had experienced she said "meetings and a full share in the ministry are NOT optional, if we stop going to meetings we will then start to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong." (This was a very bad thing in her book)

It is true once you stop going to meetings and subjecting yourself to the WT brainwashing program your mind starts to clear and you no longer see "the truth" in the same light as you did before. It becomes repulsive and you are upset to ever have been involved in such a thing. You seek out others who feel the same and you end up posting on the JWDF. That is part of my story...

funkyderek

Sirona,

I say Abaddon is not "condemned" and is just as enlightened as the rest of us, and you both think I'm condemning him just like the JW condemned me?

No, I don't think you were condemning him. It was probably closer to condescension than condemnation, although I know that was not your purpose. You appeared to be saying that his not believing is part of a divine plan - or universal purpose etc. - rather than it being a consequence of the conclusions he reached as a result of applying reason. You may not even understand the importance of that difference. Telling him that he had applied reason incorrectly and had forgotten to factor in x, y or z could have begun a fruitful exchange of ideas, with the possibility for both sides to learn.

You make no real distinction between the JW and me because in your eyes were both "stupid" for believing in anything....right?

No, but I believe your beliefs are both wrong, in the sense in that they do not accurately describe the universe in which we live. With JWs I am certain that some of their beliefs are wrong as they are testable, and when tested prove to be false. I am only vaguely familiar with your beliefs but they generally seem to be untestable, which, to me, means they are unworthy of consideration. If they are testable, then let's get testing!

There are some beliefs which do not condemn others, which are not fundamentalist and which therefore don't harm people. Perhaps you should be distinguishing between ordinary "believers" and those who are part of a damaging cult, instead of suggesting we're essentially the same.

But you are essentially the same. There is certainly a difference between (for example) people who believe in absurdities that require them to dance naked during a full moon, and those who believe in absurdities that require them to fly aeroplanes into skyscrapers. But how would you suggest I distinguish between the two? If you accept all beliefs as equally valid, there is no way to do so. If you compare their results you need an outside standard, or you will be forced to conclude that the latter action was a glorious victory for Allah. Those who accept the absurd premises of a particular brand of Islam are forced to accept the absurd conclusions which result, and compelled to act accordingly. You condemn fundamentalism, but what is fundamentalism except actually living strictly according to the beliefs one professes to hold? If you don't distinguish between the beliefs, how can you condemn the results?

Just another point. I'm sorry if you feel I have insulted you. I would suggest however that you took what I was saying the wrong way.

No offence taken, I assure you. And I hope you don't feel too insulted by anything I've said. I get far more frustrated than insulted anyway. I simply cannot understand what compels people to abandon reason in one area of life, nor have I figured out how to debate with anyone who rejects reason.

I was saying that actually it isn't God who would choose to make you "see" or "not see". I was trying to get across that I think that the universe is evolving and that we are part of that development. Therefore, it is necessary and beneficial for different people to "specialise" (for want of a better word) in different things.

That's very nearly the same thing. Whether it's the choice of a god, or just beneficial for an evolving universe the result is the same.

Not better, or more noble things, just different things. Where perhaps I'm lacking, yours or Abaddon's thinking processes are required and helpful. Because of "who you are" you can achieve different things (things I might not be able to achieve) We can't all think the same right? Similarly, I bring a different perspective, being religious. Not better, just different, and (I think) necessary.

You may think me closed-minded or arrogant, but I will never accept that beliefs based on feelings are equivalent or comparable to those based on the application of reason to the available evidence. I will never accept extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence, nor will I ever believe that religious beliefs should somehow be exempt from the rigourous process of investigation by which we learn to distinguish reality from fantasy.

Nathan Natas

"OK I will tell you why" she said, smugly. "Belief in the truth is a divine gift from God. He opens our eyes. Now that you have stopped going, he has taken it away from you, so you don' t believe"

Sirona, why would you want to question this woman's revelatory insight?

You have a choice to make: will you accept her kind and loving statement, or will you foolishly lean upon your own understanding of your heart, your motivations, and your internal life?

She is offering you a gift. You should accept it unquestioningly.

Why would she lie or make up a story about something as important as this?

Satanus

FD

You condemn fundamentalism, but what is fundamentalism except actually living strictly according to the beliefs one professes to hold?

Yes, and so, what is fundamental to a scientist or a scientific person such as yourself? Why, whether something is testable in the lab or not. If it is, then let's get testing. And so, you match the fundamentalist description as well, fundy derek.

SS

Frannie Banannie

Sirona, did she show you where it said that in the scriptures? (smirks)

Frannie B

funkyderek

Yes, and so, what is fundamental to a scientist or a scientific person such as yourself? Why, whether something is testable in the lab or not. If it is, then let's get testing. And so, you match the fundamentalist description as well, fundy derek.

Sure, if you play the right word games. The only thing I accept as fundamental in understanding the universe, is that the universe exists.

outoftheorg

HI SIRONA

I AM GLAD YOU POSTED THIS ENCOUNTER.

NOW IF I AM ASKED THE SAME QUESTION I CAN ANSWER WITH.

WHY YES I DO. YOU SEE JEHOVAH GAVE ME DIVINE GUIDANCE, CAUSING ME TO SEE THAT THE WBTS IS NOT HIS MESSENGER.

THOSE WHO REFUSE TO ACCEPT HIS GUIDANCE AND THAT CHOOSE TO REMAIN IN THAT CULT DO NOT AND WILL NOT HAVE JEHOVAHS FAVOR.

Outoftheorg

asleif_dufansdottir

Sirona,

I'd have asked her (at least I hope I would have thought of it quick enough), "So, now that I'm not a JW, then Jehovah's laws like gravity don't apply to me anymore? If something is true, then it's true. Saying that Jehovah has to give you some special gift to see 'the truth' is, in effect, the same thing as predestination. JWs don't believe in predestination, do they??" Tell her she belongs with Calvin and his 'elect', not the JWs.

Wonder what she'd say to that.

"I will tell you why you don't believe"

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