Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    Kenneson,

    If we are just like the Father and the Son, how are they unique?

    And what does uniqueness have to do with oneness? How did you manage to find a way to break off into another topic?

    I have read your posts and in them I see henotheism, ...

    According to your interpretation, the Bible is henotheistic. Or don't you believe that the Bible describes Moses, etc., as God. You must also view Bible scholars as henotheistic, scholars such as the translators of the NIV, who assert that David and his descendants who sat upon the throne of Israel and Judah were properly called "God" (with a capital "G") by the people, just as Jesus the ultimate King of Israel was addressed as "God" by Thomas.

    herk

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    3. THE HUMILIATION OF CHRIST (2:5-8)

    Christ is the supreme example of humility and selfless concern for others (vv.
    5-8). These verses, along with verses 9-11, constitute a grand statement on
    Christology.

    2:5.

    Believers are exhorted to have the same attitude?selfless humility?
    Christ exhibited in His humiliation and condescension. The word here translated
    attitude is translated "like-minded" in verse 2.

    2:6-8.

    The word translated nature (morpheô) in verses 6 and 7 is a crucial
    term in this passage. This word (trans. "form" in the KJV and NASB) stresses the
    inner essence or reality of that with which it is associated (cf. Mark 16:12).
    Christ Jesus, Paul said, is of the very essence (morpheô) of God, and in His
    incarnation He embraced perfect humanity. His complete and absolute deity is
    here carefully stressed by the apostle. The Savior?s claim to deity infuriated the
    Jewish leaders (John 5:18) and caused them to accuse Him of blasphemy (John
    10:33).

    Though possessing full deity (John 1:14; Col. 2:9), Christ did not consider
    His equality with God (Phil. 2:6) as something to be grasped or held onto. In
    other words Christ did not hesitate to set aside His self-willed use of deity when
    He became a man. As God He had all the rights of deity, and yet during His
    incarnate state He surrendered His right to manifest Himself visibly as the God of
    all splendor and glory.

    Christ?s humiliation included His making Himself nothing, taking the very
    nature
    (morpheô) of a servant, and being made in human likeness (v. 7).
    These statements indicate that Christ became a man, a true human being. The
    words "made Himself nothing" are, literally, "He emptied Himself." "Emptied,"
    from the Greek kenooô, points to the divesting of His self-interests, but not of
    His deity. "The very nature of a servant" certainly points to His lowly and
    humble position, His willingness to obey the Father, and serve others. He became
    a man, a true human being. "Likeness" suggests similarity but difference. Though
    His humanity was genuine, He was different from all other humans in that He
    was sinless (Heb. 4:15).

    Thus it is seen that Christ, while retaining the essence of God, was also
    human. In His incarnation He was fully God and fully man at the same time. He
    was God manifest in human flesh (John 1:14).

    Some have wrongly taught that the phrase, being found in appearance as a
    man
    (Phil. 2:8), means that He only looked human. But this contradicts verse 7.
    "Appearance" is the Greek scheômati, meaning an outer appearance which may
    be temporary. This contrasts with morphe 4 ("very nature") in verses 6 and 7,
    which speaks of an outer appearance that reveals permanent inner quality.

    The condescension of Christ included not only His birth?the Incarnation in
    which He became the God-Man?but also His death. And it was the most cruel
    and despicable form of death?even death on a cross! (v. 8) This form of capital
    punishment was limited to non-Romans and the worst criminals.

    No better example of humiliation and a selfless attitude for believers to
    follow could possibly be given than that of Christ. With this example before
    them, the saints at Philippi should be "like-minded" (v. 2) and live humbly before
    their God and each other.

    Most of the contributing writers are Professors of Bible Exposition Dallas Seminary.

    E

  • herk
    herk

    ellderwho,

    Most of the contributing writers are Professors of Bible Exposition Dallas Seminary.

    You are probably not aware of the fact that thousands of scholarly books have been written that prove the Trinity is unscriptural and of pagan origin.

    Are you serious?

    After all I've written in sincerity, you question whether I'm serious.

    This ridiculous play on words.

    I made no play on words, and you label what I wrote as ridiculous. If this is all the respect you have for another contributor in this debate, there's no point in my going any further with you.

    herk

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Herk,

    I think St. Paul in 1 Cor. 8:4-6 sums it up best: "there is no God but one."

  • herk
    herk

    Kenneson,

    I think St. Paul in 1 Cor. 8:4-6 sums it up best: "there is no God but one."

    It's easy to disregard what other parts of the Bible say by deciding on one verse as the complete summary of all there is to know on a certain topic. The complete Bible for some people is a mere page or two.

    However, the Bible itself states that "ALL Scripture is inspired of God," not just a verse or two. You seem intent on rejecting the fact that the Bible gives at least two definitions to the subject of God. There should be no doubt that there is one almighty supreme God. Jesus set the example in rendering worship to him. However, the Bible also calls Jesus and others "God," but in another sense. It is an original Jewish sense that you choose not to accept. But your denial does not change the ultimate truth.

    herk

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Herk:

    I made no play on words, and you label what I wrote as ridiculous. If this is all the respect you have for another contributor in this debate, there's no point in my going any further with you.

    I've seen you nitpick an assumed offense, in an attempt to get out of a difficult spot, before. Yet I know you to be nowhere near that thin skinned.

    For goodness sakes, please just answer the man, regarding Jesus being the Creator (capitalisation intentional ).

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Herk,

    Your seriousness has to be in question when you hold on to the word "grasp" with blinders on. And fail to look at the the context of the statements Paul makes when describing Christ human nature and Diety.

    To convey the thought, Christ would "reach" or strain, or somehow struggle to attain equality with Yahweh is simply not what Paul is saying.

    When the passage is read with your slant, it doesnt fit grammatically. Wouldnt it sound better if Paul were to say " equality was not something that Jesus was "grasping at"

    Futher, what do you do with the word that in greek means " robbery"

    I know you from past debates. I concur with Little Toe, your not that "thin skinned"

    So be it, my appologies given for the description of your answers.

    I await your explanation of Yahweh, Jesus and who made what.

    E

  • herk
    herk

    ellderwho,

    Your seriousness has to be in question
    you ... with blinders on. And fail to look at the the context
    your slant
    my appologies given for the description of your answers

    Maybe we can continue when you make up your mind.

    herk

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Herk,

    But I do accept the original Jewish sense of God.

    2 Sam. 7:22: "That is why you are indeed great, O Lord Jehovah, for there is no other like you, and there is no God except you among all of whom we have heard with our ears." See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and 1 Chronicles 17:20

    Psalm 86:10: "For you are great and are doing wondrous things; You are God, you alone."

    Isaiah 44:8: "Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none." See also Isaiah 45:22 and Isaiah 46:9

    Ex. 34:14: "For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God."

    Micah 7:18: "Who is a God like you, one pardoning error and passing over transgression of the remnant of his inheritance?"

    There are other examples in the Old Testament, but let us now turn to the New.

    Mark 12:32 compared to Deut. 6:4-5

    1 Tim. 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus."

    I have to go to work now, but I think you may get the gist.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Ellderwho:

    Herk writes: Maybe we can continue when you make up your mind.

    Looks like he's conceded you were right, on that one, then, and that all he has is hot air and extra slippery lube...

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