Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ellderwho

  Herk,

  Why would you state your position and so easily back off. I'm sure in all your years you've been able to hone your position. But quite frankly you bring nothing to the table. I really wish you would.

  As the Jw plays doctrinal and scriptual hopscotch when pressured, you seem when pressured to want to play lets jump from scripture, to you hurt my feelings, and Im not going to answer that.

  So be it, my appologies given for the description of your answers.

  I said the above last, for a reason. Then I left you with a question. Stop the nitpickin. And open your Bible to the verses quoted.

  E
• 

  herk

  Kenneson,
  

  But I do accept the original Jewish sense of God.

  Somehow you're missing my point, and I don't know why. I keep mentioning it, but it just seems to blow over as if I never mentioned it. I'm not faulting you for that, but I really do wish you would analyze your statement: "But I do accept the original Jewish sense of God."

  After making that statement, you proceeded to quote several texts that indicate to me that you really did miss my point.

  We agree that there is only one true God. But where we don't seem to agree is in understanding "the original Jewish sense of God." The ancient Jews believed as you and I do that there is only one true God, but they also believed that God's special agents should be viewed as God. They are not God in the ultimate sense of the word, but they are God because they represent him. David and Solomon, for example, sat upon "the throne of David." (1 Kings 2:12) But David's throne was also called "the throne of the Lord." (1 Chronicles 29:23) David was not the Lord actually or in reality. But because he spoke for God to the people, his words were to be obeyed as if they came from God himself.

  That is what I mean when I speak of the Jewish sense of God. The Jews didn't invent that concept. It came from God himself. Concerning the angel that God sent to speak to the people of Israel, he said, "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him." (Exodus 23:21) The angel, as God's representative, was to act in God's name. Often, as shown by the context in each case, angels were called "God" or "the Lord." One example is in Genesis 16:9-13:
  

  • Verse 9 - "the angel of the LORD said to her"
  • Verse 10 - "the angel of the LORD said to her"
  • Verse 11 - "The angel of the LORD said to her"
  • Verse 13 - "she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, 'You are a God who sees'"

  God's authority was transferred to the angel because God's name was "in him."

  Jesus also had God's name "in him." He said, "I have come in my Father's name." (John 5:43) And, "the works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me." (John 10:25) Jesus was not the Father, and he was not God actually or in reality. Like the angel who was called God, Jesus was God in the sense of speaking and acting for God. He could even forgive sins just as the angel had been empowered to do.

  When the crowds waved palm branches as Jesus rode into Jerusalem, they didn't shout "Blessed is he who comes as the Lord himself." Instead, "The crowds going ahead of him, and those who followed, were shouting, 'Hosanna to the Son of David; blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest!" (Matthew 21:9; Mark 11:9) "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord; peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" (Luke 19:38; John 12:39)
  
  Jesus was not the Lord God, but he came in the name of the Lord God as his instrument and agent. That is how the apostles understood it. This becomes plain in what Peter told the assembled Jews at Pentecost: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death." (Acts 2:19-24)

  Jesus was not God, but he was empowered to act for God. "God performed through him." This is plain from what he said and how a crowd reacted: "Jesus ... said, '... But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'--then he said to the paralytic, 'Get up, pick up your bed and go home.' And he got up and went home. But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Matthew 9:6-8) Jesus was not able to forgive sins and to perform powerful miracles because he was God, but because God "had given such authority to men."

  The verses you supplied prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus is not God. The Father alone is God. If Jesus is also God in the same sense as the Father, then we have two Gods, not one. Trinitarians by means of mental gymnastics try to explain away that their doctrine teaches more than one God, but their reasoning bears no resemblance to anything in the Bible. Well-known historians have traced the origin of the Trinity back to paganism, not to the earliest Christians.

  herk
• 

  Kenneson

  Herk,

  You tell me that the verses I provide prove beyond a doubt that the Father alone is God. Then you go through great lengths to try to prove to me that some verses indeed show that special agents like Moses, David, angels are functional Gods by office. And the Trinity doctrine is confusing?

  As to Jesus, however, we have already established that he is superior and pre-eminent to these personages, have we not? So, he cannot be God solely by office, can he? After all, he is Mighty God (Is. 9:6) as is Jehovah in Is. 10: 20-21. He is Lord of Lords (Rev. 17:14) as is Jehovah (Deut. 10:17), the Shepherd (John 10: 11 and Heb. 13:20-21) as is Jehovah (Ps. 23:1); the Rock (1Pet. 2:7-8 and 1 Cor. 10:4 and Acts 4:11) as is Jehovah (Is. 8:14); the only Savior (John 4:42, Titus 1:4, etc.) as is Jehovah (Is. 43:10-11); the First and the Last (Rev. 22:13 as is Jehovah (Is. 44:6), etc. Where are Moses, David, and angels given such titles? Why not?

  But Jesus and the Father have more in common than just titles. They are both worshipped by angels (Heb. 1:6 and Neh. 9:6). They both created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10 and Neh. 9:6). Both give eternal life (John 10:28, 1 John 5:11). They are both unchanging (Heb. 13:8 and Mal. 3:6). To both every knee will bend and every tongue confess (Phil. 2:9-11, Is. 45:23).
• 

  herk

  Kenneson,

  Then you go through great lengths to try to prove to me that some verses indeed show that special agents like Moses, David, angels are functional Gods by office. And the Trinity doctrine is confusing?

  No hard feelings, but I'm puzzled why you just can't seem to get it. I'm not the one who decided to call angels, Moses, David and others God. The concept goes back thousands of years and originated with God himself. I've shown you the scriptures on the topic, and I was hoping they would clarify the matter, but apparently they haven't.

  Sorry for wasting your time.

  herk
• 

  Kenneson

  Herk,

  I wonder if the concept you speak of originated with God. Or could it be man's understanding of what they saw that is in question. The messenger of the Lord in Gen. 17:13 may appear upon reading to be identified with the Lord himself, as in Gen. 32:3; Ex. 20:19; Dt. 4:33 and Judges 13:22 but this certainly poses problems for interpreting another concept that the Jews had and that is a person dies upon seeing God (Ex. 33:20)

  Could it be that this concept is similar to the Roman Catholic thought that when the Pope speaks as Christ's representative, Christ speaks? So, in Jewish thought, when the messenger of the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks. The messenger, then, is the vicar of the Lord. But is he really the Lord?
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  Sirona

  I mentioned earlier on this thread that I would post my thoughts on this matter. I realise that many of these scriptures had been covered, but for the sake of living up to my word I thought I'd post my thoughts. I did this mostly for JWs a few years back....I thought they had it wrong about Jesus being an angel.

  Sirona

  The Nature of the Saviour

  The bible speaks of Jesus Christ, a Saviour, who came to redeem the sins of the world. (1 John 4:14) Was Jesus Christ God incarnate? Or was he “a god” but not God himself? (John 1:1 New World Translation).

  If we were to assert that Christ himself was in fact God incarnate, we would need to have evidence in scripture that Christ meets the criteria to be God. Let us take a look at what the scriptures say about God Almighty and then compare this description with what we know about Christ.

  Isaiah 44 verse 6* says

  “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

  Here we see that Jehovah is the only true God. He is also described as “the first and the last”. This phrase demonstrates that Jehovah is Eternal. He has always been. He is the “I AM”. Moreover, he is the true god and will give his glory to no other:

  “I am Jehovah. That is my name, and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images” Isaiah 42:8

  Both of these scriptures assert that there is no other God besides Jehovah and that he will not give his praise to anyone else. Of course, we know that certain bible texts refer to “gods” separate from Jehovah, so how can it be that Isaiah 44 verse 6 states that “besides me there is no God”? Clearly those other gods mentioned in scripture are false gods, only Jehovah is a true God. Usually other gods are mentioned in reference to idols or to false worship.

  Now let us consider a passage of scripture in Revelation chapter 1. Verse 13 begins:

  “and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle”

  This “someone like a son of man” is clearly Jesus. Jesus speaks, in verses 17 and 18:

  “And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and Hades”

  Jesus announces himself as “the First and the Last” just as Jehovah did in Isaiah 44 verse 6.

  This raises the question, “what is Jesus status?” He is the First and the Last, but is he God? Some have suggested that Jesus is “a god” but not God himself. John 1 verse 1 has been rendered “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god” (NWT).

  If Jesus is “a god” is he a true god or a false god? Jehovah himself has stated that there is no other (True) God and that his glory will not be given to any other. Does this mean that Jesus is a false god?

  No, he is not a false god. Jesus is spoken of in scripture as “our God”

  2 Peter 1:1 “Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours by the righteousness of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ”

  He is God incarnate.

  “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” Colossians 2:9 (King James)

  This verse is rendered in the NWT “because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” Footnote to this verse in the NWT says that “divine quality” is the Greek word “theotetos” or “Godship”. Jesus is godship in bodily form.

  Jesus has the attributes of being God Himself. He is Eternal and has always existed.

  Isaiah 9:6 “Eternal Father”

  (not only Eternal but also our Father)

  John 8.58 “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been”

  (or “I AM” the greek word used here is in present tense, therefore “I AM” is more accurate) The title “ I AM” has been used in reference to Jehovah.

  Rev 1:18 “I am the First and the Last,”

  He is the only Saviour, just as Jehovah is.

  Isaiah 43.11 “I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no saviour”

  2 Peter 1:1 “Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours by the righteousness of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ”

  As quoted above 2 Peter 1:1 shows Jesus to be “our God and Saviour”.

  Jesus is also our Rock, just as Jehovah is.

  Isaiah 44:8 “Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock”

  1 Corinthians 10:4 “for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ” (King James Version) (NWT renders this “rock-mass meant the Christ”)

  Jesus reveals God to us. “He is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being”. He is powerful “he sustains all things by his word of power” (Hebrews 1:3)

  He is worthy of Worship.

  “… let all Gods angels do obeisance to him” Heb 1:6 NWT

  The greek word here rendered “do obeisance” is proskynesatosan meaning “worship”. Their footnote says “Or “let…worship”. This word appears in other greek texts such as:

  Luke 4:8 “it is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service”

  Note in this verse, the greek word proskynesatosan is rendered worship. There is no basis for translating “do obeisance” in Hebrews 1 verse 6.

  “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever. And the four living creatures went saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped” Revelation 5 :13,14.

  Here we see Jehovah God and the Lamb (Jesus) being given equal honour and worship. Just as in John 5 verse 23:

  “in order that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father”

  “just as they honour the Father” suggests that equal honour would go to the Son.

  As God, the bible tells us Jesus should be worshipped. There is also a reference to Jesus being prayed to:

  “and they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” Then bending his knees he cried out with a strong voice “Lord, do not charge this sin against them” Acts 7: 59, 60.

  This was a prayer to Jesus by a faithful man. The New World Translation renders the word “Lord” as “Jehovah”. In fact, there are no manuscripts in existence that have the name Jehovah in this verse. The greek word is Kyrios, or Lord. Why would Stephen cry out to Jesus, then suddenly switch to praying to Jehovah? No the whole prayer was to Jesus himself.

  How can we worship Jesus if Luke 4 verse 8 says we should only worship Jehovah? Because the bible says that they are the same.

  “He that has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say “show us the Father?”” John 14:9

  Thomas declared Jesus to be God:

  “In answer Thomas said to him “my Lord and my God!” John 20:28

  How does Jesus respond to Thomas? With a rebuke? No!

  “Jesus said to him : “Because you have seen me you have believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe” John 20:29

  Jesus indicated that he did not know certain things that the Father knew. Then how could he be God?

  “he emptied himself and took a slaves form and came to be in the likeness of men” Phil 2:7

  Yes God “emptied himself” to become a man . God is omnipresent and therefore could exist in heaven and on earth at the same time. In his earthly body, Jesus was emptied of his full nature of deity.

  In his human incarnation he would not be “equal to God” in spirit because he was in a fleshly body, having “lowered himself” to live a human life. God the spirit is called the Father, God the human (Jesus) is the Son (thereafter referred to as the Son when he was raised).

  Jesus came to pay a ransom for the sins of Adam. He had to be fully a human being to do so and therefore he emptied himself of his full godliness whilst in the flesh.

  This is not to say that the Trinity doctrine is correct. Triune deities existed in pagan nations. However, one does not have to believe the trinity to believe that TWO (Jesus and God) are the One God.

  If we say that Jehovah is the True God and Jesus is “a god” then we are practising POLYTHEISM (belief and reverence in more than one god). Jehovah said

  “You must not have any other gods against my face” Exodus 20:3

  Jesus is the “firstborn” of God, because he is first in authority.

  “He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things” Col 1:18

  “He is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist” Col 1:17

  Note: the NWT renders Collossians 1 verse 17 as “He is before all [other] things”. The translators admit that there is no greek word for “other” in this verse so that is why there are brackets around the word. This word was added to this scripture to support their theory that Jesus is not God. When translated properly, as above, we see Christ is “before all things”.

  Yes the bible says that Jesus is God, the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last:

  “Look! I am coming quickly and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”

  What about the name of Jesus? Jesus means “Jehovah is salvation”. The name of Jesus is very prominent in the Greek Scriptures.

  “Furthermore there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved” Acts 4:12
• 

  hooberus

  In his human incarnation he would not be ?equal to God? in spirit because he was in a fleshly body, having ?lowered himself? to live a human life. God the spirit is called the Father, God the human (Jesus) is the Son (thereafter referred to as the Son when he was raised).

  Sirona, you seem to be advocating some sort of Modalism.
• 

  hooberus

  whom all the angels of God worship

  "Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him . . . " Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

  "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

  the LORD, the Mighty God

  "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God." Isaiah 10:20-21 "Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name," Jeremiah 32:18 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 the LORD who is good "O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." Psalm 34:8 "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious," 1 Peter 2:3-4 the Lord GOD who comes with his reward "Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him." Isaiah 40:10
  "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12
• 

  herk
• 

  herk

  one does not have to believe the trinity to believe that TWO (Jesus and God) are the One God.

  We should study the Bible to discover what it says in harmony with the original intention of the Author. Trinitarians hunt for proof texts to substantiate what they already believe.

  herk