Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Sirona

  Herk

  Yes, the Bible says Jesus is God. But the question is, Is he God in the sense that the Father is God or in the sense that Moses, David and others were spoken of as God?

  So we're in agreement that the bible does say Jesus is God. I think that a close examination of the scriptures is required to see if the bible says Jesus and God Almighty are One. There are scriptures where God is called the Rock and similarly Jesus is, and where God is Alpha and Omega, and similarly Jesus is referred to this way.

  Unfortunately, my research on the subject is on my home computer (and I'm somewhere else right now), I will try and fish it out if we're going to talk about this. I admit I'm probably pretty ignorant about the bible in general, I'm not a Christian and therefore don't read the bible in my daily life. However, when I looked into it I near on convinced myself that the bible was saying Jesus is God and that he emptied himself and took on a human form. I don't think the Trinity doctrine is biblical.

  Sirona
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  herk

  Sirona,

  I think that a close examination of the scriptures is required to see if the bible says Jesus and God Almighty are One.

  Yes, they are One in the same sense that Jesus prayed for his disciples to be One with him and with his Father. At John 17:11, 22, Jesus prayed: "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." Jesus and his Father do not belong to a Trinity, and he surely was not praying that his disciples become part of a Trinity.

  There are scriptures where God is called the Rock and similarly Jesus is, and where God is Alpha and Omega, and similarly Jesus is referred to this way.

  Peter was also called a Rock, but he was not a part of God. Upon careful examination of the book of Revelation, it will become clear that Jesus was not called Alpha and Omega as some trinitarians claim.

  I near on convinced myself that the bible was saying Jesus is God and that he emptied himself and took on a human form.

  The Bible does say that Jesus "emptied himself," but it doesn't say that he emptied himself of being God. It says he was "in the form of God." That could not mean that he was the very nature of God, for then Jesus could not have been "Very God" while on earth, as trinitarians claim, since being "in the form of God" is what he is said to have sacrificed and left behind in coming to the earth. Jesus was in the form of God by his resemblance to God mentally and morally. His character was the express image or reflection of his Father's person. (Hebrews 1:3)

  herk
• 

  LittleToe

  Herk:
  Doctrinally speaking, the fact that you acknowledge Jesus as "God" is more than enough for me (in fact "Lord" was sufficent for me to label you a Christian).
  Whilst I often argue on Trinity threads, I don't honestly care too much whether or not people believe that doctrine. It doesn't appear to affect whether or not God deals with them, IMHO.

  Cutting through the wrangling, though, would you deny that Revelation calls Jesus "the first and the last"?

  That could not mean that he was the very nature of God, for then Jesus could not have been "Very God" while on earth, as trinitarians claim, since being "in the form of God" is what he is said to have sacrificed and left behind in coming to the earth. (emphasis mine)

  There's a reasonable spread of understanding as to what the "Trinity" is, however your logic in saying that Jesus "could not have been" seems very human, IMHO
  Who are we to say what "God" can or can't do or be?
• 

  LittleToe

  Just another point:
  How would you explain Judges 6:12-16, etc. (I just happened to read it right now).

  Here the "angel of the LORD (YHWH)", evidently "the Word", is called "the LORD".

  Just curious.
• 

  hooberus

  Doctrinally speaking, the fact that you acknowledge Jesus as "God" is more than enough for me (in fact "Lord" was sufficent for me to label you a Christian).

  So are active witnesses (who believe that Jesus is a created angel) Christians too?

  What about 2 Corinthians 11:3-4?

  3: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
  4: For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
• 

  Narkissos

  LT

  Here the "angel of the LORD (YHWH)", evidently "the Word", is called "the LORD".

  Evidently "the Word"?

  Hoob

  So are active witnesses (who believe that Jesus is a created angel) Christians too?

  Aren't they?

  What about the ancient Arian evangelizers of Central Europe? Or the non-trinitarian believers on this board?
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  hooberus

  What about the ancient Arian evangelizers of Central Europe? Or the non-trinitarian believers on this board?

  The apostle Paul warned about those who preach "another Jesus, whom we have not preached"

  Do the non-trinitarians on this board consider trinitarians such as myself to be genuine christians?
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  LittleToe

  Hoob:
  Careful not to get too retentive, there, buddy
  If you don't like my position, just say so

  Nark:
  You have another suggestion?
  I was making one that I believed Herk might agree with, for the sake of addressing his concerns.
• 

  ellderwho

  The Bible does say that Jesus "emptied himself," but it doesn't say that he emptied himself of being God.

  What then did Jesus empty himself of ?
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  Kenneson

  It's interesting to note that some would make Jesus God in the sense of Moses, David and others. Yet Hebrews chapter 3 shows that Jesus is superior to Moses. See also John 5:45-47. In regards to David, see Matt. 25:41-46. I don't know who the "others" are to reply further.

  It's also interesting that Jesus the Rock is compared to Peter, a rock. Yet Christ is greater than Peter for he is the chief cornerstone (Eph. 2:20) And the unity of the Father and the Son is said to be the same as the unity between the believer and Jesus. Yet that is not what Rev. 21:22 and John 1:14, 18 indicates.

  Perhaps those who consistently try to minimize Jesus will explain to us how Jehovah is Savior (Isaiah 43:11) and Jesus is Savior (Titus 1:3-4). How is Jehovah the Creator (Gen. 1:26-27 and Isaiah 44:24)) and Jesus the Creator (Heb. 1:8, 10)? How can Jesus give things that only God can give? (John 1:12-13 )