Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk
hooberus,
Please list some of these "hundreds of texts that say otherwise"
- Jesus did not come of his own initiative but was "sent forth" (John 8:42; 17:8; Galatians 4:4) just as an angel and the Holy Spirit were "sent forth." (Acts 12:11; Galatians 4:6)
- God knew the time when Jesus would return, but Jesus knew no more than the angels concerning the "day and hour" of that momentous event. (Matt. 24:36)
- God prays to no one, but Jesus spoke to God in prayer. (John 17)
- Jesus acknowledged, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
- Jesus ascended heavenward to "appear for us in God's presence." (Heb. 9:24)
- God is Almighty and cannot be exalted to a higher position, but Jesus was exalted by God to a superior position. (Php. 2:9, 10) If Jesus was God and equal to the Father before his human birth, his exaltation would make him greater than God the Father.
- The Bible places Jesus below God as "the mediator between God and man." (1 Tim. 2:5)
- "The head of Christ is God," but no one is above God. (1 Cor. 11:3)
- God will never be subject to anyone, but Christ will "hand the kingdom over to his God" and "subject himself to God." (1 Cor. 15:24, 28)
- The Father addresses no one as his God, but Jesus spoke of the Father as "my God." (John 20:17) Paul wrote that the Father is the God of Jesus. (2 Cor. 1:3)
- Christ sits not as God but at "God's right hand." (Ps. 110:1)
- "No man has seen God at any time," but men have seen Christ. (John 1:18)
- No man can see God and live, but men did not die when they saw Christ. (Ex. 33:20)
- Jesus said "nobody is good except God," meaning that God is good in a way Jesus was not. (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19)
- The apostles did not regard Jesus as God. If they had, they would have exclaimed as Manoah did, "We will surely die, for we have seen God!" (Judges 13:22)
- God received his universal sovereignty from no one else, but Daniel foretold that Jesus would be "given rulership." (Dan. 7:13, 14)
- God is eternal, has always been immortal and cannot die, but Jesus did die. (1 Tim. 1:17)
- God was alive at the same time Jesus was dead. (Acts 2:24)
- God needs no one to save him at any time, but Jesus needed to be saved. (Heb. 5:7)
- Jesus was God's "servant," and a servant is not greater than his master. (John 13:16; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:26, 27, 30)
- "One who is sent" is not "greater than the one who sent him," but Jesus was "a man sent by God" just as John the Baptist was. (John 1:6; 13:16)
- God cannot be sacrificed, but "God did not spare his own Son, but delivered him over for us all." (Rom. 8:32)
- No one can give to God "as though He needed anything, since he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things." (Acts 17:25) But God "gave" Jesus "authority to execute judgment," and Jesus said "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." (John 5:27; Matt. 28:18)
- Christ did not subject all things to himself, but God "put all things in subjection under his feet," with the exception of God himself. (1 Cor. 15:27; Eph. 1:17, 22; 1 Pe. 3:22)
- If Jesus is the all-wise God, why did he have to learn anything? (John 8:28; Heb. 5:8)
- God cannot be exalted higher than he always has been, but Jesus was exalted by God to be Prince and Savior. (Acts 5:31)
- God has always had a name greater than all others, but "God highly exalted" Jesus "and bestowed on him" a name greater than he previously had. (Php. 2:9)
- The Father worships no one, but Jesus worshiped the Father as God. (John 4:22)
- The Father is all-powerful as the Almighty God, but Jesus said he could not do anything on his own. (John 5:19; 6:38)
- God receives his strength from no one, but Jesus received strength from angels. (Matt. 4:11; Luke 22:43)
- God is God, but Jesus is the "image" or reflection of God, not God himself. (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)
- "All things" originate with the Father, but Christ is the agent "through" whom all things come. (1 Cor. 8:6)
- At his return, Jesus will speak with an archangel's voice instead of with God's voice. (1 Thess. 4:16)
- Jesus is to be worshiped in the manner that other humans are to be worshiped. (Compare the use of proskuneo in Matt. 8:2; 18:26; Heb. 1:6 and Rev. 3:9.)
- Christ is never given the latreuo type of worship that only God receives. (Matt. 4:10)
- No one can command God to do anything, but God commanded Christ. (John 12:49)
- Stephen saw two persons in heaven, God and Jesus at God's right hand. He did not see a God composed of three persons. (Acts 7:55)
- The contents of Revelation originated with God who passed them to Jesus who in turn passed them to John. (Rev. 1:1) God was the giver, and Jesus and John were the receivers.
- Our duty is to acknowledge Jesus, not as God, but as the Son of God. (1 Jo. 4:15)
- Satan and the demons who dwell in the invisible world acknowledged Jesus, not as God, but as the Son of God. (Matt. 4:3, 6; Luke 8:28)
- Jesus did not "choose" God, but God did "choose" him. (Ps. 2:7, 8)
- God is not anointed by anyone, but Jesus is "the anointed of God." (Acts 4:24-27)
- The Father does not live "because of" Jesus, but Jesus lives "because of the Father." (John 6:57)
- If the Trinity is a "mystery" not to be understood, as is often claimed, how can it be tested? (1 Thess. 5:21)
- It was God who "made" Jesus "a little lower than the angels." (Heb. 2:9, 10)
- The Father is called "the only true God," but Jesus never is. (John 17:3)
- Adam would have been equal with God if the expression "son of God" as applied to Jesus was meant to convey that idea. (Luke 3:38)
- Etc., etc.
Jesus demands that our worship of God be "in truth." (John 4:24) Paul warned us about believing in "another Jesus," a Jesus other than the one revealed in the Bible as God's Son, the Messiah promised by the Old Testament prophets. (2 Cor. 11:4)
Trinitarians seem to have rejected the Bible's instructions and warnings. Their preference is for a Jesus other than the one foretold. They call their Jesus "God the Son," an expression they know perfectly well is found nowhere in the Bible. They insist that Jesus referred to himself as God, when the fact is that he never did. The Greek ho theos refers to the Father alone 1,325 times. In sharp contrast, the only sure instance where the title ho theos applies to Jesus is at John 20:28. Most would agree that Hebrews 1:8 is a second clear instance, but it is a quotation from Psalm 45:6 and gives us a key to what Thomas meant when he addressed Jesus as "my Lord and my God." Since the Psalm was addressed to David and those who sat upon his throne, the title belongs to Jesus even more surely since he is the ultimate king to sit upon David's throne. God's angel had promised Mary: ""He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32) This was in complete agreement with God's promise to David: "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. Your house and your kingdom shall endure before me forever; your throne shall be established forever." (2 Sam. 7:12, 13, 16) It also agreed with the prophecy, "There will be no end to the increase of his government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this." (Isa. 9:7)
herk
hooberus

herk, I hope to respond shortly to the points that you listed.
reganashe
Farkel

herk,
You have about a zillion bullet points, but you've said nothing. You've made no arguments, and you've mereely spouted stuff.
Nice citations.
What you trying to say?
Can you articulate your agenda in simple words for we fools?
"Spouters of stuff rarely have the tools to defend their spouting of stuff."
This is a Farkel observation, based upon experience. I could be wrong.
Farkel
gumby

I get herk and hooberous all mixed up. All I remember is one believes in the trinity, and the other one dont.
Gumby
hooberus
Whwn presented with a list (such as above) it is heplful to categorize the items:
greater / servant / sent issues:
Jesus acknowledged, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
Jesus was God's "servant," and a servant is not greater than his master. (John 13:16; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:26, 27, 30)
"One who is sent" is not "greater than the one who sent him," but Jesus was "a man sent by God" just as John the Baptist was. (John 1:6; 13:16)
worship issues:
The Father worships no one, but Jesus worshiped the Father as God. (John 4:22)
Jesus is to be worshiped in the manner that other humans are to be worshiped. (Compare the use of proskuneo in Matt. 8:2; 18:26; Heb. 1:6 and Rev. 3:9.)
Christ is never given the latreuo type of worship that only God receives. (Matt. 4:10)
exaltation issues:
God is Almighty and cannot be exalted to a higher position, but Jesus was exalted by God to a superior position. (Php. 2:9, 10) If Jesus was God and equal to the Father before his human birth, his exaltation would make him greater than God the Father.
God cannot be exalted higher than he always has been, but Jesus was exalted by God to be Prince and Savior. (Acts 5:31)
God has always had a name greater than all others, but "God highly exalted" Jesus "and bestowed on him" a name greater than he previously had. (Php. 2:9)
seeing God issues:
"No man has seen God at any time," but men have seen Christ. (John 1:18)
No man can see God and live, but men did not die when they saw Christ. (Ex. 33:20)
The apostles did not regard Jesus as God. If they had, they would have exclaimed as Manoah did, "We will surely die, for we have seen God!" (Judges 13:22)
How can God dies issues:
God is eternal, has always been immortal and cannot die, but Jesus did die. (1 Tim. 1:17)
God was alive at the same time Jesus was dead. (Acts 2:24)
God cannot be sacrificed, but "God did not spare his own Son, but delivered him over for us all." (Rom. 8:32)
Son of God issues:
Our duty is to acknowledge Jesus, not as God, but as the Son of God. (1 Jo.n 4:15)
Satan and the demons who dwell in the invisible world acknowledged Jesus, not as God, but as the Son of God. (Matt. 4:3, 6; Luke 8:28)
Adam would have been equal with God if the expression "son of God" as applied to Jesus was meant to convey that idea. (Luke 3:38)
herk
hooberus,
greater / servant / sent issues:
Jesus acknowledged, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
Jesus was God's "servant," and a servant is not greater than his master. (John 13:16; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:26, 27, 30)
"One who is sent" is not "greater than the one who sent him," but Jesus was "a man sent by God" just as John the Baptist was. (John 1:6; 13:16)
- Jesus affirmed without the least qualification, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) Trinitarians disagree: "The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal." How can the Father be greater in any way if they are co-equal?
- Jesus said, "A slave is not greater than his master." (John 13:16) Trinitarians disagree: "A slave (the Son) is equivalent to his master (the Father)."
- Jesus said, "One who is sent is not greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16) Trinitarians disagree: "The preexistent (prehuman) God the Son (the one sent) had equal authority with God the Father (the sender)."
- Jesus said the Jews knew the God they worshiped, and Peter said, "The God of Abraham was the God of our forefathers." (John 4:22; Acts 3:13) Trinitarians imply that Jesus as a member of a triune God was unknowingly worshiped by Abraham and the Jews, including the Jewish forefathers. Thus they deny what Jesus said about the Jews knowing the God they worshiped.
- The first century disciples thought of Jesus as a servant like David who was chosen by God. (Matthew 12:18; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:25-27, 30) Trinitarians paint Jesus as the Supreme God who is in no way inferior to or dependent upon the Father Almighty.
- Peter said, "The God of Abraham glorified his servant Jesus." (Acts 3:13) Trinitarians suggest that Jesus, possessing authority as Almighty God, glorified himself.
- Peter believed that the God of Abraham raised up Jesus as his servant just as he raised up judges and others to instruct his people. (Acts 3:26; Judges 2:16) Trinitarians paint God as both master and servant who raised up and sent himself.
- Jesus was sent from God just as John was "sent from God." (John 1:6; 13:16) Trinitarians thus intimate that God sent himself (or, God sent God) in the same manner that he sent John.
herk
hooberus
Jesus affirmed without the least qualification, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) Trinitarians disagree: "The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal." How can the Father be greater in any way if they are co-equal?

Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-equal in terms of their nature as God. The use of "greater" in John 14:28 is due to position, not nature.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28

John 14:28 if frequently applied to in order to argue against the Trinity teaching that Jesus and the Father are equal.

Response:

The term "greater" is applied to one who is served by others: servants serve one that is "greater" than themselves.

Luke 22

26: But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27: For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

In Luke 22:27 the one who is served is said to be "greater" than the one who serves: "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat?. . . "

The one who is served is "greater" by position than the one who serves. Even though the one who is served is greater by position than the one who is served they are both equal in terms of nature (ie. they are both equal in terms of their humanity).

In the same way Jesus when He became a man took upon himself "the form of a servant" (Phillippians 2:7) Jesus as a servant was positionally lower then the Father. As a servant Jesus could say that the Father was "greater than" he, just as the one who is served is said to be "greater" than the one who serves (Luke 22:27).

However, just as an earthly servant is equal by nature to his master, so Jesus by nature is equal to his Father. The Trinity teaches that Jesus and the Father are equal in terms of nature, but allows that the Father was greater by postion when Jesus became a servant.

Interestingly the Bible says that Jesus "took upon him the form of a servant":

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Phillippians 2:7

The phrase "took upon him the form of servant" would seem to indicte that prior to the time of talking on thre form of a servant that Jesus was not then in the form of a servant. This is a poweful argument that Jesus and the Father were positionally equal prior to the incarnation. This would also seem to contradict the Watchtower premise that Jesus existed as "a servant" for millions of years prior to the incarnation.

Jesus said, "A slave is not greater than his master." (John 13:16) Trinitarians disagree: "A slave (the Son) is equivalent to his master (the Father)."

Trinitarians do not disagree with John 13:16. Trinitarians believe that masters are "greater" than their servants in terms of position. However, despite being greater by position, masters and slaves are equal in terms of their nature (servants and masters are equally human).

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

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