Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie 102 Replies latest social current

  • talesin
    talesin

    L_T

    I'm disappointed in your comments re this:

    The root cause of problematic terrorism is fundamentalist, radical, Islam

    So you're saying that it's not problematic when English, Irish, French, South and Central Americans to name a few, die? Oh, yes, only 9/11 and the Islamic terrorists are 'problematic'.

    Farkel

    thanks, I was getting a bit het up myself, no harm no foul

    Now, into the fray !

    Why is the Saudi involvement with 9/11 being swept under the rug?

    How could you say that? Everyone knows all of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis.

    Then where's the repercussions for Saudi Arabia??? Imo, they're interests are intertwined with that of the US, therefore the administration has adopted a 'hands-off our economic allies' policy.

    Why is Saddam the objective, when he is not involved with Al Quaeda? Because he one of the worst terrorists in the world.

    Al Quaeda was responsible for 9/11, not Saddam, and what about Nigeria, for example, or Haiti? Oh yes, they have no fossil fuels ...

    :Why have trade sanctions been imposed on the Iraqi people for the last 12 years, thus making economic recovery practically impossible?

    The trade sanctions were contingent upon letter UN inspectors into Iraq to find and dispose of weapons of mass destruction. Sadaam kicked them out. He didn't keep his end of the bargain, and so the sanctioned continued.

    There were no WOMD; the administration knew it, and now we know it. That was a smokescreen, Saddam did not pay for this, the common people did. They are the ones who now have no food, water, or electricity. (BTW, yes Saddam IS a monster as are many other current dictators, no argument here)

    : Why is your country not addressing the CAUSES of terrorism? Religion is the cause. The Crusades and Inquisition were also acts of terrorism. When someone commits a terrorist act and believes that God not only approves of it, but they will be eternally rewarded for it, it's not an easy thing to "address." You don't negotiate with such people, you don't try to reason with such people. You go out and kill such people.

    Oppression is the reason people turn to radical fundamentalism.

    The Crusades and Inquisition were acts of terrorism, I agree, but they were perpetrated by the powerful over the poor as a means of control.

    This is a case of the poor turning on the powerful, like a chained dog who has been beaten repeatedly and finally turns on its owner, viciously taking out its pain on the inflictor of said pain.

    (note: click on http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=1502&StartRow=1&ListRows=10&appendURL=&orderby=D.DateLastUpdated&ProgramID=39&from_page=index.cfm for an analysis of terrorism dating back 2000 years that confirms your statement and shows the difference between the two. Source: Centre for Defense Information An interesting read.)

    : It?s the self-righteous ?we?re saving the world? attitude that bothers me. It seems the world only gets saved when it?s convenient, or when the US itself gets attacked,

    What do you mean by "convenient?"

    I mean that the US took no action against terrorists attacked NEW YORK, what about all the other terrorist acts over the last 40 years - palestinian (Black September), IRA, Basque, South America

    Do you think our President sits around all day and summons his aides to ask, "is today a convenient day to start a war with some Country?"

    Well, maybe, not sure (j/k, a little humour doesn't hurt when debating)

    We (and our allies) DID save the world:

    Yes, AFTER years of having the world beg for help, and only after Pearl Harbour was attacked. It's the idea of altruism that offends me - the US did not try to save the world, only itself. It was still conducting business with Hitler's Germany long after WWII began.

    So, are we better off for "saving the world," or not? Will the Iraqis be better off when their Country is secured and they are free to pursue their dreams?

    No, and no. We would be better off solving the problems that cause people to turn to fundamental extremism, because as long as these problems exist, terrorism will rear its ugly head.

    Think Che Guevara, think IRA, think Black September. It just seems to me that this is not the way to defeat an evil that has its roots in economic and cultural oppression.

    We'll probably never agree, but thanks for listening to my side. It will be interesting to see how events unfold over the next few months, years. I hope we all survive it. Violence begets violence, imho, and our society's capitalistic greed and need for control can only exacerbate the world situation.

    We truly need a paradigm shift in attitudes if the human race will survive. It's too bad we (just meaning humans, all of us) can't focus on working towards a new world order that cares about living things instead of the almighty dollar.

    And for those of you who may wish to mock me for being idealistic, well go ahead ! So was Ghandi, so was JC, so was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And I have no problem being lumped in with them.

    And just for general clarification, I do not agree with a lot of actions taken by Canada and the US in our brief history as nations. I mean, we started off with genocide of the aboriginal peoples. What does that say about us? It says that our society was founded in violence and murder.

    It is my feeling that it's good to look into the mirror presented to us by the rest of the world. Oppression exists here - that of the mentally ill, the poor, people of colour and others. Think of the real torture that goes on in prisons. Did anybody watch OZ? So a guy gets drunk, has an accident, spends the next X number of years being raped and tortured. We CONDONE TORTURE. How hypocritical are we?

    Just a thought, not to be argumentative. It's just that I have pondererd these issues a lot and it seems to me that we as a society are oh-so-self-righteous whilst ignoring our own human rights violations and the injustices perpetrated upon the weak within our culture.

    I think this is a large reason for much of the antipathy the world feels for America right now. As in our personal lives, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Got a bit off-topic there, sorry. I guess I'm all argued-out. This will probly be my last reply, but I am interested in your rebuttal, and will read same with interest. Thanks.

    tal

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Tale,

    I'm sorry, economics is NOT the root of terrorism. Osama is quite wealthy...for that matter so was Muhammed, who also used terrorism. No, the problem is the philosophy. The poor we will always have with us...unless we turn the whole world into consumerists like the west is their poverty actually will play little part in why some choose terror. And you say this as if the US and the West are to blame for the poverty imposed by their own rulers.

    I will go this far with you...we've propped up corrupt governments a few too many times...but sometimes that's better than the alternative. Us supporting Mushariff in Pakistan is better than the alternative...don't you think?

  • talesin
    talesin

    Yeru,

    Well, I guess it comes down to ideology. I come from a socialist viewpoint ...

    There are no quick solutions to the world's problems, but I really do not believe that your statement has to be true *the poor will always be with us* although unless there is a paradigm shift, nothing will change. We have the technology to solve world hunger, disease, everything else.

    It's just that the need for power, and greed prevents that - not American traits, but human ones.

    A thread by PS started early today (check for the word 'consensus') contains this interesting article.

    Give it a read.

    Annan: U.N. needs consensus on global threats

    He says poverty, disease threaten more than terrorism, WMDs

    I would add to that "destruction of the ecosystem".

    Oh and BTW, tks for that concession, yes all countries have made mistakes and one can still be a patriot and acknowledge said mistakes. That's how I feel about Canada as well. We are certainly not perfect either.

    take care,

    tal

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "Yes, this sounds familiar and very much like the American point of view."

    So, is an "American POV bad" Frankly, I'm proud to have an American POV.

    "/and to answer YOUR question,

    What precisely do you think the US can do to gently "assist" terrorists to quit terrorizing.

    First of all, a little education would be in order. WHY and WHEN did anti-US terrorism rear its ugly head? A little historical reading would give you a better comprehension of why we are in such a state right now. I have neither the time nor the inclination to give you a history lesson.

    Why not educate yourself instead of just adopting this kill-em-all attitude, when you clearly have little understanding of the history leading up to these events?"

    Oh, yes, that REALLY "answers" my question. What, bottom line, are you saying? I know that

    question probably appears threatening, and American, but, frankly, re-read your post. What the hell are you trying to say???

  • donkey
    donkey

    I posted this on the other thread (why we have 2 concurrently who knows)....

    Frankly it doesn't matter what you think or what I think or for that matter what Spain thinks. If the terrorists think they scored a victory or if the think they were successful in changing the policy of Spain then that's all that counts and I would expect them to try to repeat the process on other US allies such as Italy or Poland.

    The rest of us are just talking shit and our opinions are just air...some quite stale.

  • redshoes
    redshoes

    But do you know we all are at war? this truly is war and seems to me that only a small part of the nations are realising it.The reaction of spain it is justified,they are disgusted and terrified.Bush wanted this war and and as far as I can see the all world will suffer. Most of the nations wanted it for greed and possession ,now it is too late to turn back.If the decision of the spaniards was wrong or or not,only the times will tell.Surely it was a big decision. Now who knows,this act could cost more human lifes.Is this the fulfilment of the last day? Are we so close to the end of this system of things?

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "Surely it was a big decision. Now who knows,this act could cost more human lifes.Is this the fulfilment of the last day? Are we so close to the end of this system of things?"

    I assume you are being facecious (sp). If not, it puts the preceding points of your post in perspective.

  • talesin
    talesin

    blacksheep

    You said of the terrorists,

    They cannot grasp the concept of pluralism; they only know "bad" and "good." We and are way of life are "bad"; they and their beliefs are "good."
    "Yes, this sounds familiar and very much like the American point of view." (my reply)

    So, is an "American POV bad" Frankly, I'm proud to have an American POV (bs responds)

    So, you are proud that you 'cannot grasp the concept of pluralism'. SInce you cannot grasp the concept of pluralism, and you feel no need to understand Middle Eastern history, then I have lost any lingering hopes of having an intelligent debate with you.

    talesin

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "So, you are proud that you 'cannot grasp the concept of pluralism'. SInce you cannot grasp the concept of pluralism, and you feel no need to understand Middle Eastern history, then I have lost any lingering hopes of having an intelligent debate with you."

    Do as you like. And if your side of the "debate" is that we only need to provide these people with more "understanding" of what's causing their frustrations, as I think it appears to be, then good riddence. I for one can see absolutely NO reasons for killing innocent people and children to make a point, to be in any way justified. You seem to want to help us sympathize with them. Sorry, I cannot. Under NO circumstances should such killing of innocent victims to make a point be justified. That is NEVER the solution, and they should be made aware that it is not.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    First of all, the country doing the exporting has been shown to be a little lacking in democracy itself. How difficult can conducting an election be really? LOL

    HEY! Low blow!

    Well, let's just see what happens. This has been a long drawn out nightmare - and it's just beginning. There is no way to avoid it, in my opinion. As a young american male, I can expect to be joining up before I turn 30 and probably choke to death on my own blood somewhere that's too hot. Sheesh... whatta life...

    I concur with all of the opinions that insist upon self-inspection. Prisons, etc. It must be done, you hippie types are good at it, so go for it. Make this a great country. But sometimes we conservatives are right too, you know.

    CZAR

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