Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie 102 Replies latest social current

  • talesin
    talesin
    Even though I was a small child back in the sixties, I remember the IRA bombings, the '68 (or was it '72?) Olympics, car bombings in Lebanon and Israel, and many, MANY other terrorist acts over the last four decades. But there was no 'War on Terrorism' till the US got attacked. Interesting. Kinda reminds me of WWII.

    No, I'm not jealous. Edited to say: I have universal health care, lots of space and water, and also feel a lot of shame over the way my country has ignored the disgusting situations in other parts of the globe. Although I love my birthplace, I'm not afraid to admit that we are not perfect and I feel no need to tell others how to run their countries. You wanna get into it? Let's talk NICARAGUA, EL SALVADOR, COLOMBIA, VIETNAM, HAITI, SOUTH AFRICA, and I'm just gettin' started. As an ex-JW, national pride means little to me. I was oppressed for much of my life, and I'm not gonna let some capitalist, news-media, corporation greed-driven country hornswaggle me into thinking they're better than all the Asians, Arabs, Europeans and Africans of the world. You're no better than anyone else, and I for one am sick and tired of the american "we have all the power and go suck ass" attitude. tal

  • Simon
    Simon
    The United States is now the world?s top donor of economic aid. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion.

    In economic terms, percentage of GDP, the USA is one of the least generous countries.

    Not to mention that the economic 'aid' is often in the form of weapons for countries like Israel or that complicated monetary rules means that most of the money flows right back.

    Really, you don't want to start claiming that the USA is generous because your claims are very hollow.

  • AlanB
    AlanB

    In the words of a great English journalist.

    "The Americans are very magnaminous in their generosity, they paid for thousands of prosthetic limbs to replace all the arms and legs they had blown off"

  • AlanB
    AlanB
    I'm kinda surprised that the Anti-America/Bush folks here find themselves opposing Democracy, 'instant' or otherwise. A cursory look at world history reveals autrocity after autrocity have been committed against citizens by their own non-democratic governements.

    I agree, we should show sympathy for the American people against whom their non democratically elected government has commited so many atrocities.

  • shamus
    shamus
    Ah, and what about Castro's regime, which Canada seems so fond of

    Black Sheep,

    I just wanted to pop in here and say, as a Canuck (I have iraq as my country, ha ha!) just what the hell you are saying? We are fond of cuba and castro, ROFLAMO! Jeez, I had better tell all my friends about this.

    Surely you're kidding. Where does one read or watch such garbage? I would love to see a newpaper clipping, internet site, or whatever the heck you are talking about?

    Sorry, but that statement is too funny. See why I don't get involved in political threads anymore? You hear such nonsense (lest I am ignorant).

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    This was actually a victory for democracy, you do realise that Osama Bin Laden is praying for Bush to get back in in November don't you? If Kerry gets in then he is going to have a much harder time formenting dissent because pragmatic politics will hopefully prevail instead of the machismo arm flexing of someone who dodged the draft during vietnam.

    Satan's,

    That is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. This is a victory for terrorism, and if you don't see that you're intentionally blind. As to Osama praying Bush wins, that's absolute BS. Kerry has promised to make this a "legal" instead of a military matter...just as Clinton did...and we see how effective that was...that draft dodger you're talking about must be Clinton...A NG pilot had an excellent chance of going to Nam...at least Bush didn't become an antiwar spitting on US soldiers activist.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "I just wanted to pop in here and say, as a Canuck (I have iraq as my country, ha ha!) just what the hell you are saying? We are fond of cuba and castro, ROFLAMO! Jeez, I had better tell all my friends about this.

    Surely you're kidding. Where does one read or watch such garbage? I would love to see a newpaper clipping, internet site, or whatever the heck you are talking about?

    Sorry, but that statement is too funny. See why I don't get involved in political threads anymore? You hear such nonsense (lest I am ignorant)."

    Apparently, that parenthetical statement is accurate. I am frankly quite surprised by your lack of knowledge of your Country's position on Castro's Cuba. You might want to do more research. Cuba has been embraced by liberals as well as Canadians....(well, I guess they are the same thing).

    http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y98/feb98/28e2.htm
    http://www.focal.ca/images/pdf/cuba_canada.pdf

  • FreeWilly
    FreeWilly
    I agree, we should show sympathy for the American people against whom their non democratically elected government has commited so many atrocities.

    With all due respect Alan, you should study up on the meaning of a "Republic" and how the democratic process works within one. James Madison discusses it at length, particularly in The Federalist Papers # 14.

    And as far as "Atrocities"..... Surely you are not going to list poor Saddam an his family among them are you? I know, every leader should have the right to dip their 'enemies' into acid and Gas wayward townships, but come on, look at all the oil for christs sake! Please list all the supposed atrocities of this "non democratically elected government". I would have chose an earlier administration, such as those during the Native American massacres, but you apparently see something I don't with this present one so enlighten me.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    From today's NYT:

    The contest in Spain had always been close between the governing Popular Party, which backed Mr. Bush's policies, and the Socialists, who opposed them. Other issues at stake before the bombings were unemployment, a housing shortage, women's rights and social benefits.

    In March 2003, at the height of opposition to the Iraq war, the Socialists were ahead in polls. With the economy roaring and the Socialist Party in disarray (see my earlier post on the ETA-Catalon scandal), the Popular Party pulled ahead. On March 7, the last date in which polls were published, an Opina poll showed that the gap had narrowed, giving the Popular Party 42 percent, compared with 38 percent for the Socialists.

    Four days later, terror struck. With Madrid under siege, voters were expected to rally around the flag and stick with the party that had talked the toughest against terrorism, at least initially. Even the Socialists braced themselves for that outcome, said two senior party officials.

    But interviews with scores of Spaniards of both parties indicated that a number of things happened after the attacks that shifted the balance to the Socialists. Voters flooded the polls on Sunday in record numbers, especially young people who had not planned to vote. In interviews, they said they did so not so much out of fear of terror as out of anger against a government they saw as increasingly authoritarian, arrogant and stubborn. The government, they said, mishandled the crisis in the emotional days after the attacks.

    Voters said they were enraged not only by the government's insistence that the Basque separatist group ETA was responsible, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, but they also resented its clumsy attempts to quell antigovernment sentiment.

    For example, the main television channel TVE, which is state-owned, showed scant and selective scenes of antigovernment demonstrations on Saturday night, just as it ran very little coverage of the large demonstrations against the war in Iraq last year. It also suddenly changed its regular programming to air a documentary on the horrors of ETA.

    That was the last straw for some Spaniards, who said it evoked the nightmare of censorship during the Franco dictatorship little more than a quarter of a century ago.

    Prime Minister José María Aznar personally called the top editors of Spain's major dailies twice on the day of the attacks. In the first round of calls, Mr. Aznar said he was convinced that ETA was responsible.

    "He said, `It was ETA, Antonio, don't doubt it in the least,' " said Antonio Franco, editor in chief of the Barcelona-based El Periódico de Catalunya, in an interview.

    Mr. Franco's newspaper published a special edition based on Mr. Aznar's call, then Mr. Franco published an editorial rectifying the mistake as new information came to light. "It was shameful to me that the whole world was taking precautions and debating about Al Qaeda except in Spain, where the attack occurred," he said.

    At the Spanish news agency EFE, Alfonso Bauluz, a correspondent and member of the agency's union, said, "I received information from my colleagues, who have good sources, about the Al Qaeda hypothesis, but the editor said we don't want that, don't pay attention. On Saturday, the editor wrote a story with his own byline saying all possibilities of an Al Qaeda connection were thrown out."

    During Mr. Aznar's second call that evening, he acknowledged that other avenues were being investigated, but discounted them, Mr. Franco said.

    Meanwhile, within 24 hours of the terrorist attacks, the Socialists, through their own intelligence and diplomatic contacts in the Muslim world, were already leaning toward the theory that Al Qaeda and not ETA was responsible, two senior Socialist Party officials said.

    Spaniards are still struggling to absorb both the shock of the terror attacks and interpret the result of the upset election on Sunday.

    "The terrorism attack has changed the result of the election, but the people were also deceived by the government, so it's a combination, a mix of the two of things," said Elena Roldán, a 28-year-old law librarian who voted Socialist.

    At the bus and train terminal at Plaza de la Castilla in northern Madrid, Alberto Martín, a 31-year-old nuclear physicist who voted Socialist, said, "If the government had said, `We don't know who did it,' nothing would have happened and Zapatero would not be there. Aznar was making decisions without any consideration for people's concerns. Look at the war in Iraq. Aznar thought he was God! There was no dialogue."

    The election, Mr. Martín added, "is a victory for the people, not for terrorism. You see, I'm now going to take the train."

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    talesin,

    : US has done NOTHING for decades but support regimes that terrorize and torture people for their own gain, and now that they are attacked they are oh so self-righteous about 'protecting' the world.

    : please address this, instead of skirting around the issue.

    Better late than never, or do you think we shouldn't have done anything about it after 9/11? The problem with arguments such as this is that no matter what was done, you could still find a reason to make them wrong:

    If we took steps to abolish terror at the very beginning, it would be argued that we used too much force for such a little problem.

    If we ignored terrorist entirely, it would be argued that we were endangering our own security.

    When we're finally taking major steps to reduce/eliminate terrorists you people are screaming "why now? Why did we ignore this for so long?"

    Some people will just not be satisfied no matter what happens. These people are called "whiners."

    Farkel

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