Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie 102 Replies latest social current

  • ApagaLaLuz
    ApagaLaLuz

    Let us remember that 200 people DIED. 1000 injured. People over there are scared. Imagine how things may have turned out if we had an election just 4 days after September 11th. The debate about Spain supporting the war has been going on for along time over there. There has been alot of turmoil with the seperatists as well. I have spent an extended amount of time in Spain. Just 3 weeks ago I was at the very train station where these bombings originated. And I stayed at the very spot where the protests were. Spain is a WONDERFUL country, with wonderful people, and a new Prime Minister who Really does have the best interests of the citizens, the PEOPLE of the country who have elected him. I cried when I saw what happened. Politics kills so many innocent.

    *****stepping off my soap box now******

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Satan's little minion,

    This had nothing to do with terrorism, this had to do with the Spanish PM being an American ass kissing liar.

    That my friend is pure B.S. The populars were ahead...significantly...in every poll until the attack.

    Explain to me, if you can, how it is the terrorists will NOT see this as a victory?

  • donkey
    donkey
    However, the message "terrorism works" is equally clearly disastrous.

    Well that is the message. I would not be surprised to see Al Qaeda attempt to beat other Euro's into submission now that they have succeeded in doing that to Spain.

  • Gozz
    Gozz
    This had nothing to do with terrorism, this had to do with the Spanish PM being an American ass kissing liar.

    Not exactly. Some to do with terrrorism, but yes, a lot to do with the former Spanish PM supporting America, turning a deaf hear to the wishes of the people.

    The guy was an idiot who tried to use the bombing for political gain and tried to pass it off as internal strife to victimise the basque people yet again.

    Correct. He tried to play the Spanish people for a fool; not even the hurried UN resolution to blame ETA worked. Good for a people to be alert.

    This is not a message that terrorism wins, this is a message that if you lie to the people and do not listen to the people then you will get your ass kicked out of office.

    Add to that that when you go against the wish of the people in a matter of war, you have total responsibility to make sure the home front is safe. That's where the outted Spanish govt failed; and they deserve what was coming for the stupid attempt to pile it all on ETA.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Now, I'm probably as anti-Bush as anybody, and I don't really want to wade into that debate.

    But, the reality is that the terrorists got exactly what they demanded. You will never find a greater incentive to commit terror than to have them precisely achieve their ends. It's a simple matter of positive reinforcement.

    Spain has the right to choose whatever course they want, but in this case, I believe that they have just sentenced a lot of innocent people to death.

  • Satans little helper
    Satans little helper
    Satan's little minion,
    This had nothing to do with terrorism, this had to do with the Spanish PM being an American ass kissing liar.

    That my friend is pure B.S. The populars were ahead...significantly...in every poll until the attack.

    Explain to me, if you can, how it is the terrorists will NOT see this as a victory?

    Actually not BS. Had the bomb blast not happened then, as you quite rightly point out, the populars would have got back into office. What changed the equation was not the bombing per say it was the way the government handled it. The government blamed the Basques to try and create further internal pressure on them, to demonise them in the eyes of the general public and to sort of trivialise what had happened. They did not want it to be said that the government had caused this by supporting America, so they painted it as the work of an internal faction looking for independance. They lied, that is why people voted for the socialists. Can the terrorists call it a victory? Perhaps. Did they influence an election? only indirectly due to the reaction to their actions. They also managed to get more people out voting who would have not bothered otherwise, most of these were the young who were massively anti war. If the terrorists see it as a victory then who cares? This is not a pissing contest of who can look harder, it's about creating a world which is secure and equitable. If you remove the economic causes of discontent then you remove the support for terrorism. I know it's a radical thought Bush and his new conservative cronies prefer spending dollars on guns rather than removing trade barriers for third world farmers. They would rather see 500 soldiers die than a few rich conservatives make a few millions less. It makes me sick. This was actually a victory for democracy, you do realise that Osama Bin Laden is praying for Bush to get back in in November don't you? If Kerry gets in then he is going to have a much harder time formenting dissent because pragmatic politics will hopefully prevail instead of the machismo arm flexing of someone who dodged the draft during vietnam. In the end it comes down to what you value. There was much made of Clinton's lying during the Lewinsky thing, but hell it was only a blowjob. So what? You chastise someone for getting his pole waxed and support a former drunk who lies to you over something as important as a war? If the American people cannot see the rediculousness of your position then I think the US education system has alot to answer for. Bush is a liar, end of story. Vote for him if you like, but expect the ridicule and comtempt of the educated world for doing so.

  • Simon
    Simon

    The pro-war lobby and Bush / Blair supporters will want to label this a "victory for terrorism" simply because it is a poke in the eye for them and 'their guys'.

    The fact is that this is Spain. The spanish people did not want to go to war in Iraq and the government was not representing their will. This has now been corrected and IMO is the right and proper thing to do.

    The outgoing government paid for trying to twist things into being an ETA problem (pronounced "Eee Tee Aye" instead of "Ettah" by an ignorant Bush at a news conference) which would have benefitted the government politically instead of it being an Al Quida 'reprisal' which obviously lays some responsibility at their own door.

    Having democratic elections does not promote terrorism. That is a rediculous notion. Equally rediculous is the assertions that the only way to combat terrorism is by having a big fight. Quite the contrary - this is the one method that is almost certainly guaranteed to fail. What terrorist cause has been beaten by war? ever?

    The only resolution comes from diplomacy and resolving the cause of conflicts, the inequalities and the suffering.

    If Britiain is bombed then I for one will not be out on the street beying for revenge. I will be out demanding that the idiot Blair own up to what he has brought upon us. Well don Mr Bush. Thanks for making Europe the front line in your dumb war.

    The whole problem since Sep 11 is that Bush has played into the hands of terrorism and no one has stopped and said "why has this happened?" "why do people hate us so much that they will kill themselves?".

    Maybe they already know but don't like the answers.

  • talesin
    talesin
    All of Europe will be overrun with Islamists within 20 years

    This is funny, people said that about Canada in the 70s after the French terrrorists committed their heinous acts. "The French will take over"

    Well, 30 years later, still speaking English here ...

    I have enough respect for the Spanish people to let them make their own choices. Canadians don't agree with this 'armed invasion', neither does MOST of the world including, I might add, the UN.

    The terrorists starting winning the moment Iraq was invaded. The purpose of terrorism is to create fear and confusion. As far as I can see, it's working. The Iraqi people want America OUT of their country. Terrorism grows from oppression, more oppression only fosters more terrorism.

    I know it's a radical thought Bush and his new conservative cronies prefer spending dollars on guns rather than removing trade barriers for third world farmers.

    Not really, SLH, a LOT of us feel the same way.

    talesin

  • donkey
    donkey
    If the American people cannot see the rediculousness of your position then I think the US education system has alot to answer for. Bush is a liar, end of story. Vote for him if you like, but expect the ridicule and comtempt of the educated world for doing so.

    Sorry...I had to laugh at the comments here chiding the US education system when the author of the comment cannot even spell properly.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    Having democratic elections does not promote terrorism. That is a rediculous notion. Equally rediculous is the assertions that the only way to combat terrorism is by having a big fight. Quite the contrary - this is the one method that is almost certainly guaranteed to fail. What terrorist cause has been beaten by war? ever?

    Pompey's assertion of Roman supremacy destroyed Post-Carthaginian Mediterannean piracy in the 1st century BC.

    Scipio Africanus totalled Carthage in return for the unconventional tactics of Hannibal.

    The Thuggees were beaten by your own British troops in India, to everyone's relief...

    Terrorism, by its own definition, crosses the lines that exist to preserve civilization as a whole - and it tends to erode the support of its own people because it respects nobody's rights, not even the people's on whose "behalf" it is being undertaken. How many Iraqis are being murdered and bullied by their Arabic cousins?

    Yes, Spain is allowed to withdraw its troops. I'm not arguing that. I will argue that such withdrawal is counterproductive to the current effort and situation. If the Iraqi people, so recently liberated, see that the West can be driven away so easily - will they not lose heart? Will they not lose faith in democracy?

    Isn't the democracy in Iraq our best hope for a stable, peaceful relationship with the Islamic world? If the extremists are allowed to isolate the moderates in Islam, if the forces of democracy are easily beaten off by cowardly acts and despicable thuggery (a word you should know, my respected English friend) then what hope do they have of preserving themselves? If we abandon them like Chamberlain abandoned the Sudentland, to the tender mercies of Bin Laden and his crew - then we have not only failed, we have doomed ourselves. There is no retreat at this point. We either win or lose. All the cards are on the table. We either advance democracy into a globally accepted form of government, or we look forward to the long slow decline into annihilation.

    You do ask the correct question. Why do they hate us so that they will kill themselves to hurt us a little? My belief is that they are desperate beyond human reasoning. They have no outlet for their political frustrations. In their homelands, they are not permitted to rally, dissent, vote out their chieftains. If they could, perhaps they would not seek outlets in violence and bombings. In Iraq, coincidentally, the marchers are now permitted to rally for the first time in 30 years. It is no coincidence, in my opinion, that Bin Laden and most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, one of the most repressive and politically backwards regimes in the world.

    I say we cannot abandon them, the Arab peoples who look nervously towards our reaction, now. Kerry would abandon these people who have put everything on the line to get a stake in democracy in the Middle East, in the name of "political pragmatism", surely one of the most despicable phrases in the English language. In the long run, Kerry's half-assed "political war" would get MORE British and US troops killed. The UN, while a useful communication organ, is too political to administer the nation of Iraq at this point. Hell, it even has its own child abuse scandal in the refugee children areas. It's a bureaucracy of bureaucracies - it exists to preserve itself. If you can fix the UN, then maybe I will trust it more to do the right thing. But Kerry already thinks the UN is the answer, he already puts his faith in it, he already believes it capable of things that bluntly it has never proven itself able to do. His Spanish counterpart is insisting that the UN get political control of Iraq - simply to be able to shuffle the responsibility of maintaining order onto somebody else, probably the poor Belgians, the same ones who dropped their blue berets on the tarmac in disgust following the UN's noted failure in Rwanda. Do we really want to give the UN the same "control" that views a soldier's sacrifice with political horror? That actually insists that its troops NOT EVER FIRE THEIR WEAPONS to defend the helpless?

    On a current thread, God was denounced for not acting to stop child abuse. Well, what do we think of an organization that had soldiers standing idly by while butchery on a massive scale never before seen, not even matched in intensity and fury by the worst of Nazi depravity, and DID NOTHING? Would you put your faith in such an organization if it continues to insist that it will bring peace, as long as nobody actually resists? The UN is virtually useless as a political entity, while being unmatched as a forum, but as far as being able to even enforce its own resolutions? No, it cannot. Why SHOULD God act to save us when we put our faith in something that refuses to value the innocent - and only values a soldier's life because it is a political capital back home? That abandons troops behind enemy lines and wishes they would just "go away" after flying over and seeing mass graves? That would make peace with ethnic cleansers? That hath no moral, save, Live to Run Away Another Day?

    Bush, while certainly a rich Texan, has no illusions about the fact that America is alone, and always has been. We are composed of Europe's rejects, Africa's abused, and a blend of oppressed Natives. We are the gutter of Europe, fit only to be abandoned in our hour of need. Our language is a bastardized blend of German, French, Spanish and English. Our ideals are the ones that got us kicked out of Europe four centuries ago - and no wonder the elite of Europe still regards us with disdain.

    BTW: Do they spell "ridiculous" differently over there? Is it a "colour grey" vs. "color gray" thing? Because another British fellow I talk to does it too...

    CZAR

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