Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie 102 Replies latest social current

• 

  blacksheep

  "Sounds like "americanism" to me. "War on terror" my ass. Stop looking at the little picture, stand up and see what's really going on."

  Do share what's "really going on." Funny how people, and nations, react when tragedy strikes close to home. You are the victims of terrorism, but denounce any attempts to agressively fight it.

  Some people stand up and fight it. Others turn tail and run. They hope that if they just "play nice" and don't hang out with the people terrorists don't like, they'll be left alone. And FTR, I've lived in Europe and in America. No, I don't understand all the nuances of your political structure, but I DO understand that massive, overnight change in an entire nation's view due to an act of terror does not reflect strength...it reflects a mercurial lack of resolve. Yes, America is different from many European nations. That's why we left Europe...to find a better life. We are a nation of achievers, leaders...people who do not run from a fight. While those may not be characteristics embraced by Spain, or by Europe in general, they ARE American characteristics. And you can attack us for defending ourselves and other nations against terrorism and tyranny. But we have the right to view you as gutless, flighty, and weak.
• 

  Phantom Stranger

  But it wasn't "massive, overnight change"!

  Not "massive":

  Before the attacks, polls gave Rajoy's party a 3-5 percentage point lead over the Socialists in the race for the 350-seat Congress of Deputies.

  Not "overnight":

  MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- With opinion polls showing more than 90 percent of Spaniards are against the war, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar vowed his support of the war in Iraq would not lead to his ruling Popular Party being "cornered" by leftists and antiwar protesters.

  http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/29/sprj.irq.spain/

  And this was actually a restoration of the Socialist's lead that existed before this happened:

  The Socialist candidate for prime minister is the largely untested Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, a 43-year-old lawyer who had hoped to capitalize on people's fury over Spain's fervent support for the Iraq war. The country contributed no combat troops, but has sent 1,300 peacekeepers and 11 have died.

  In late January, the sky came crashing down on Zapatero's party.The fiasco unfolded in the Catalonia region, where nationalist and separatist sentiment is strong. Independence advocate Josep Carod Rovira, whose party rules in coalition with the Socialists, admitted slipping across the border into France to meet with members of the armed Basque separatist group ETA. This violated an accord among major parties ruling out talks with ETA.

  Aznar's government said Carod sought a deal under which ETA, apparently out of solidarity with fellow state-seekers, would halt attacks in Catalonia but keep them up elsewhere in Spain. Carod denied this. Three weeks later, to the horror of Zapatero and his party, ETA declared a Catalonia-only truce. It enabled the party's foes to paint the Socialists as tolerating the notion that it's OK to kill Spaniards in some areas but not others.

  "Of all that has happened to Zapatero, the last thing he needed was what happened with Carod and the terrorists," said Elias, president of Instituto Opina, a Barcelona-based polling firm.

  Carme Chacon, a Socialist candidate in Barcelona, put it ruefully: "Carod gave Rajoy a present, his only campaign theme."

  http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/world/8151924.htm
• 

  ThiChi

  Well, I bet you they won?t pull out. I have more faith in Spain?s resolve to address this aggression, like they have in the past. This is what I am in fear of...

  Hopes are rising in European capitals that the change of government in Madrid could break the deadlock over a new constitution for the European Union," according to the Financial Times.

  "Joséé Luíís Rodrííguez Zapatero, Spain's prime minister-elect, said yesterday he hoped for an 'accelerated' adoption of the text, which aims to streamline decision-making in an expanded EU of 25 countries and to make Europe more effective on the world stage."

  In "US-EU: The Constitutional Divide," Marian Tupy, assistant director of Cato's Project on Global Economic Liberty, and Cato Senior Fellow Patrick Basham call the drafted EU constitution "a product of 20th century welfare-state socialism" that will negatively impact the principles of self-government.

  They write: "The formal adoption of the EU constitution will result in one of two possible outcomes. Either the constitutional welfare provisions will be discretely ignored, because of their prohibitive cost and negative effect on European economic growth, or their enforcement will lead to even greater central government regulation of European social and economic life.

  "In the former outcome, the entire EU constitution will be devalued by overtly broken promises. The latter outcome will relegate the European economy to permanent second-class socio-economic status and thus postpone, perhaps indefinitely, the European dream of eventually rivaling American financial wealth, cultural influence, and political power."
• 

  ThiChi

  ""Sounds like "Americanism" to me. "War on terror" my ass. Stop looking at the little picture, stand up and see what's really going on."""

  Sounds like Chamberlain after Hitler started carving up his neighbors. Thank God Churchill showed the correct leadership needed to combat this aggression, as Bush has.

  All these Appeasers are just on the wrong side of History.
• 

  FreeWilly

  Into the Fray he goes....

  I think its safe to say the regardless of how they got there, the Iraqi people are in a much better situation than they were with Saddam in Power, much to the dismay of terrorist organizations. A recent (Rueters) news article reported:

  "Asked whether their lives were better now than in the spring of 2003, nearly six in ten Iraqis said the situation was somewhat better or much better than it was, according to the survey of 2,500 people conducted for a group of broadcasting organizations by Oxford Research International. "

  I'm kinda surprised that the Anti-America/Bush folks here find themselves opposing Democracy, 'instant' or otherwise. A cursory look at world history reveals autrocity after autrocity have been committed against citizens by their own non-democratic governements. If we divide governements into these two classes I find it amazing that anyone would favor a non-democratic form of government. Democratic governemnts are by no means innocent either (as I'm sure will be pointed out) but by and large Democratic governments serve their citizens and the world well. Democracy in Iraq is a positive step.
• 

  ThiChi

  ""I look at this Spanish election as a golden opportunity for President Bush to get back on offense. I look at this as a great opportunity for President Bush to get the moral high ground back because there's a question that faces all of us now. Terrorism is either defeated or surrendered to, and this was true before the Spanish election results muddied the waters.
  
  Europe understood this. Egypt and Turkey are on the way to understanding it. All these countries that have flown the white flag, including the UN and Iraq and Turkey and Saudi Arabia, all these countries that have raised the white flag and sent the signal to terrorists, "Don't bother us. We're not your enemy," have all suffered attacks. They want everybody to believe, the media wants everybody to believe that Spain got hit because they allied with the United States, and that may be true. But the real question now is, "Okay, the terrorists won. They got rid of a hard-line U.S. ally, with a terrorist bombing couple-three days before the election." They should have delayed this election because of this, but that's wishful thinking now and irrelevant. ""

  I agree...
• 

  Simon

  Yes, any election that doesn't support Bush's world view and opinion cannot have been fair. They should have at least kept recounting the votes until Bush's pal won !
• 

  blacksheep

  ""I look at this Spanish election as a golden opportunity for President Bush to get back on offense. I look at this as a great opportunity for President Bush to get the moral high ground back because there's a question that faces all of us now. Terrorism is either defeated or surrendered to, and this was true before the Spanish election results muddied the waters."

  Interesting. Let's see whether some Spanish citizens look upon this, not merely as an opportunity to raise the white flag upon terrorism, but to do what some have done in the US. Turn on president/ruling party. Hint that they KNEW about 3/11, but failed to prevent it. What did the president know, and when did he know it???? Let's diffuse the energy and anger,not to the true source-- inhumane, amoral terrorists-- but the leaders of these world powers for being so lax as not to figure out in advance the sophisticated horrors people who don't value human life can wreak.

  Let's face it. The public at large is open to groupthink persuasion. And nothing is more effective than a national crisis to show a nation's character. During 9-11, the nation stood together. Partisan thinking was gone. We all stood behind the president; we felt violated, enraged at the enemy. (Granted, doesn't take long to forget this and as the 9/11 memory fades, so does people's resolve/unity. But that's okay, that's part of being a nation of diversity) What does Spain do? Not lash out and see the horrific effect terrorism can have on free people. They become angry at the US. They don't denounce Al-Queda, so much as denounce Bush and America for "causing" this.

  Definate diferent view/spin on things. One group sees the terrorists as the problem. The other group sees people who try to fight against it as the problem. I know whose side I'd be on.
• 

  Phantom Stranger

  "One group sees the terrorists as the problem. The other group sees people who try to fight against it as the problem."

  Bullshit.
• 

  blacksheep

  "Bullshit."

  I can only gather, since you can't articulately argue the point with anything other than a one-word profanity, that you in fact, have no sound argument.