American Lawyers: Help on DF case!

by Narkissos 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • IT Support
    IT Support

    Narkissos,

    Are you able to give us any more details of the European case you refer to? I am wondering whether it may have any relevance to something I've been thinking about quite a lot recently...

    The WT has published numerous articles supporting human rights in general, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) in particular.

    *** w93 9/1 p. 30 European High Court Upholds Right to Preach in Greece ***

    Article 9 of the Convention reads: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance."

    *** g98 11/22 pp. 9-10 Human Rights and Wrongs Today ***

    Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion. ?Article 18. [of the UDHR]

    Of course, WT has often sought to rely on these rights when governments have objected to JW activities in their countries, and have claimed the right to proselytise as part of their 'freedom of religion.'

    What WT has evidently forgotten, however, is that these rights work both ways. The 'freedom to change your religion or belief' applies not only to those to whom JWs preach, but also to those wishing to leave their religion.

    WT, using their draconian 'apostasy' laws, are abusing the very rights they rely on to exist, and denying them to JWs who no longer want to remain in their religion. According to their definition of apostasy in the Insight book, it is " used primarily with regard to religious defection; a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith." The Reasoning book goes further, by stating that some apostates " claim to believe the Bible but reject Jehovah?s organization." And in a letter dated September 1, 1980 to all travelling overseers, the GB further tightened the screw by stating that "to be disfellowshipped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views," but "if he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what has been provided through the "slave class" then appropriate judicial action should be taken." (Welcome, Thought Police.)

    As a result, if a JW no longer believes that the GB are the "faithful and discreet slave" they must either lie to the body of elders and pretend that they have lost their faith (or some other self-abasing excuse--anything but make the organisation feel their authority is being questioned) and then try to do a fade (with the knowledge that they may still try to take action against you years later, if they ever learn of your true motives), or else they either get disfellowshipped or write a letter of disassociation, both of which result in shunning. Whichever, there is no way to leave this organisation with your self-respect intact.

    By their practices of disfellowshipping, disassociation and shunning, they are effectively holding as hostages the families of those JWs who no longer believe in their religion and who want to leave, but are afraid to do so or tell anyone their reasons why, for fear of being branded an 'evil apostate' and thus having severed all future contact with their families.

    The GB seem unable to grasp that their policy is counterproductive, as it has the effect of 'trapping' within the organisation persons who are unhappy and disaffected, and who are more than likely to give 'outsiders' the 'wrong' impression of the organisation, never mind stirring up doubts and questionings within the remaining 'loyal' JWs.

    The sad reality is that, even if they wanted to, WT dare not voluntarily ease these restrictions on freedom of thought within the organisation. They are only too well aware of the irrepressible torrent of criticism that would be unleashed if they even opened the floodgates an inch. The GB does not take kindly to criticism.

    Thus, external pressure has to be brought on the WT, and I believe this issue of their abuse of their own members' human rights is a serious--if not fatal--weakness in WT defences. It is readily proved by the innumerable testimonies of former members who have been abominably treated and who would, I've no doubt, happily testify in court.

    There is, however, one problem, though I hope it's not insurmountable. Both the UDHR and ECHR are designed to regulate the relationship between governments and their subjects. It is governments who sign up to these charters, not individuals or religious bodies. Just because each European government is bound by the ECHR doesn't in turn require every private organisation to also be so bound. Thus, I don't think it would be possible for an aggrieved ex-JW to directly take a case to court simply claiming damages for WT's abuse of their human rights, or even asking the court to require WT to change their practices.

    However, I am presently making enquiries with some human rights lawyers as to ways round this problem: perhaps you can also ask yours if they have any thoughts?

    Regards,

    Ken

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Thanks for the comments everybody.

    Ken, I'm no lawyer at all, but I fully agree with your analysis, hopes -- and fears. The present case (which is not mine) has not yet been judged (it seems to be pretty new in European jurisprudence), and I'll sure let you know when it is. It implies charges at the WT's use of files on DF'd or DA'd persons, as well as the general discriminatory instructions given to the members against ex-members (with references to the KM or WT). A link to this thread has been forwarded to the lawyers in charge and I'm sure they'll make the best out of it.

  • IT Support
    IT Support

    Narkissos,

    Is there any information on the Internet about this case? Do you have any URLs?

    Regards,

    Ken

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Is there any information on the Internet about this case? Do you have any URLs?

    Not yet AFAIK. I've only been asked for advice by private e-mail. However the plaintiff is aware of your request. I'll tell you more if he so wishes.

    Narkissos

  • link
    link

    Euph. I think that you missed the point. We are not talking about someone saying that they do not like someone else – we are talking about a person instructing or inciting a large group of other people to shun / ignore / not talk to, another person. This affects Joes livelihood.

    Joe has as much connection with the Witnesses as the person we are considering in this example. Are you saying that a Jehovah’s Witnesses Elder can tell the members of a congregation to shun anyone that he does not like (to that persons cost) even if that person has no connection with the Witnesses? I somehow don’t think so.

    link

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    link... I wish you were right. But I can't think of any legal principle to support your viewpoint.

    Let me extend my example above. Suppose that the person who doesn't like Joe is a very influential leader of the community. A lot of people are going to stop going to Joe's hardware store, because the respect this influential person. That will affect Joe's livelihood. But it doesn't change the fact that this influential person has a right to say how they feel about Joe.

  • mustang
    mustang

    Nark,

    Your assessment/their statement sums it up quite well:

    "The court decided that the shunning of a disfellowshipped person was protected by the first amendment of the US Constitution guaranteeing freedom of worship."

    Yes, freedom of religion is normally as far as anyone gets on this subject & would seem to be enough. But...

    "It considered itself incompetent to decide on the legitimity of a given interpretation of canonical texts, or decisions pertaining to the inner administration of a religious organization."

    Very good!!! This goes straight to the heart of the matter: JW's use a "Church Law" SHIELD effect. The SECULAR COURT ("law of the land"; US government, in this case) doesn't do windows, and DOESN'T DO CHURCH LAW. You strike out in the CHURCH TRIBUNALS, that is it!!! Your only other recourse is GOD!!! Yes, Churches are allowed to have their own COURTS, as long as they deal with only Church matters. Essentially, these judges are telling you that you are NOT in their venue or jurisdiction: SORRY WE CAN'T HELP YOU, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN.

    " It admitted that the practice of disfellowshipping and its consequences are an essential part of the JWs? faith and are consequently protected by the Constitution."

    Sad, but true. It is an article of their faith. You "signed the articles going in", so you agree with them. That is WTS reasoning on this and the courts hold that as OK.

    None of us knew we would need a legal dgree to understand this. As far as the Plaintiff in the above case, she is allowed to leave & do as he pleases. But, the Courts hold that if she wants "back in" or any form of redress, she has to do what the Church requires. So, she can't leave on her terms.

    I don't like it, but that is established US Judcial practice.

    You CAN start your own Church & disagree with all that the 1st Church says

    Then you have "equal protection" and "standing" under the law.

    Mustang

    All that I write or utter is protected under the Freedom of Religion/Free Exercise and Freedom of Speech clauses of the United States Constitution.

  • zacharie
    zacharie

    Mustang,

  • zacharie
    zacharie

    Mustang,

    In Belgium, we sign nothing. So we don't agree with disfellowshipping and its consequences.

    I speak french.

    Zacharie

  • zacharie
    zacharie

    Ken,

    What have you been thinking about quite a lot recently ?

    Zacharie

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