Even if a God did exist, there are no absolutes

by logansrun 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  frankiespeakin

  Derek,

  Our perceptions of reality may be wrong but that doesn't mean there is no reality, merely that we are not always equipped to see it accurately. We are however equipped to understand this and compensate for it.

  We have know way of know there is a reality,,we only guess there is a reality. There may not be this so called "reality" that every one is so concerned about.

  To have a reality means you also must have an oposite to define reality,,the oposite must be non-reality,,the 2 both cancel out each other and can not exist without each other.

  LOL!
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Funk

  For once, I'm with ya!

  D Dog
• 

  logansrun

  funkyderek,

  In an "absolute" way, you can't. Immanuel Kant made this clear in his distinction between the noumenon (the world as it is in it's totality) and the phaneron (the world as we subjectively experience it). We will never -- ever! -- see reality from an "absolute" standpoint. We will always have the inadequacies and biases of our subjective experience.

  We don't see reality objectively but (assuming there is an objective reality) we can measure it objectively.

  From an absolute sense (that word again, absolute) we cannot even measure anything objectively. All the same, I know what your getting at and I agree with you. We are forced to trust our senses (and this has gotten us far).

  Another example: Solid things appear solid, right? Common sense. But, in actual fact, there is far more empty space in any solid object than there is matter. Does that mean our perspective is wrong? No. It does mean that there is more than one. Hence, perspectivalism.

  Solid objects are solid in the normal sense of the word. A micron-high alien from the planet Flink-perty-perty-pong'tch would see a lot more holes in the world than we do but may still know that while on a microscopic scale everything is mostly empty space, on a larger scale what we call "solid" objects would appear solid.

  Yes and that is exactly what I was saying.

  Our perceptions of reality may be wrong but that doesn't mean there is no reality, merely that we are not always equipped to see it accurately. We are however equipped to understand this and compensate for it.

  First, I never said there is no reality, only various perspectives of it. Secondly, we can attempt to "compensate" for our lack of complete objectivity, but we can never do so fully. Absolute certainty in anything is a myth with the possible exception of mathematics and formal logic. We do the best we can, but it's important to remember that from time to time. B.
• 

  logansrun

  frankiespeakin,

  We have know way of know there is a reality,,we only guess there is a reality. There may not be this so called "reality" that every one is so concerned about.

  I would put the probablity of there being a reality well close to 100%. The very fact that we exist as conscious beings comes close to proving this. Perhaps you mean that people's interpretation of reality is flawed. My point is that there we can never approach absolute certainty with regard our interpretations of existence. But some interpretations, obviously, are more productive than others.

  To have a reality means you also must have an oposite to define reality,,the oposite must be non-reality,,the 2 both cancel out each other and can not exist without each other.

  What the hell does that mean?

  "Anything that can be said can be said clearly. What cannot be said we must pass over in silence." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

  B.
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Log,

  I would put the probablity of there being a reality well close to 100%.

  Doesn't matter if it is close to 85% or 50% as long as it's not 100%,,doesn't matter how close you get so stop confussing the issue. LOL

  The very fact that we exist as conscious beings comes close to proving this.

  That is really funny!!! How close tell me??

  Perhaps you mean that people's interpretation of reality is flawed. My point is that there we can never approach absolute certainty with regard our interpretations of existence. But some interpretations, obviously, are more productive than others.

  You contridict yourself in the same paragraph.

  What the hell does that mean? "Anything that can be said can be said clearly. What cannot be said we must pass over in silence." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

  O please spare me the childish humour. We are talking on a subject that may not even be understood with present words,,just like eternity we have a word that has no accurate meaning in human metaphor,, only very vague insinuations that can paint no accurate picture in any body's mind. And you expect me to be crystal clear. LOL
• 

  LittleToe

  ERGO SUM

  Discuss...

  PS - Although terse, that was a serious comment, btw.
• 

  logansrun

  frankiespeakin,

  Perhaps you mean that people's interpretation of reality is flawed. My point is that there we can never approach absolute certainty with regard our interpretations of existence. But some interpretations, obviously, are more productive than others.

  You contridict yourself in the same paragraph.

  How so?

  B.
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Log,

  I said:We have know way of know there is a reality,,we only guess there is a reality. There may not be this so called "reality" that every one is so concerned about.

  And you said:

  I would put the probablity of there being a reality well close to 100%. The very fact that we exist as conscious beings comes close to proving this. Perhaps you mean that people's interpretation of reality is flawed. My point is that there we can never approach absolute certainty with regard our interpretations

  The contradiction is that you seem to be making the point that reality is most likely,,and then we can never have absolute certainty,,it's a double blind statement that proves much uncertainty,,,so how in the world can you be even 10% certain really puzzles me.
• 

  logansrun

  frankie,

  I said:We have know way of know there is a reality,,we only guess there is a reality. There may not be this so called "reality" that every one is so concerned about.

  And you said:

  I would put the probablity of there being a reality well close to 100%. The very fact that we exist as conscious beings comes close to proving this. Perhaps you mean that people's interpretation of reality is flawed. My point is that there we can never approach absolute certainty with regard our interpretations

  The contradiction is that you seem to be making the point that reality is most likely,,and then we can never have absolute certainty,,it's a double blind statement that proves much uncertainty,,,so how in the world can you be even 10% certain really puzzles me.

  There is no contradiction in what I said at all. "Most likely" and "never have absolute certainty" do not contradict each other. Most likely I will not win the Illinois 10 million dollar lottery, although I cannot be absolutely certain of this. I think I am correct in saying that this is an obviosity.

  I attach a very high probablity to the certainty of existence as do all non-crazy people. There is a gargantuan difference between saying that we cannot be sure of any interpretation of reality and not having any clue as to whether reality even exists. Huge.

  What is more I feel that some interpretations of reality are more pragmatic and realistic than others. If one truly doesn't believe that reality even exists then they should have no problem jumping in front of a semi-tractor trailer moving at 100 mph. Not going to do it, are you?

  Your initial comments (and many others, I've noticed) were very obscure, hence the Wittgenstein quotation. One can be a "deep thinker" without jumping off the cliff of rationality and proper communication (a suggestion).

  B.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  logansrun

  Absolute certainty in anything is a myth with the possible exception of mathematics and formal logic.

  Are you saying that there may be "SOME" absolutes?

  D Dog