What's wrong with being cautious about giving incarcerated criminals money?
JWs get used as an "agency" at Resources Fair for inmates in Iowa
by Gopher 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Faraon
A friend in need
Before I answer any of your reply, would you read Mt: 6 : 25. " On this account I say to YOU: Stop being anxious about your souls as to what you will eat or what YOU will drink, or about Your bodies as to what you will wear. Does not the soul mean more than food and the body more than clothing? ( verses 33 and 34 continue ) "Keep on, then seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these ( other ) things will be added to YOU. 34 So, never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Sufficient for each day is its own badness."
Or its own goodness. One thing is to be anxious about it, and another is to completely disregard your own health when you can attend to it. The man had money for books, but not to seek medical help. As a matter of fact, he was so indoctrinated he did not care about his health. His belief on the WT doctrine was killing him. If you recall:
Q: When I was working as a visiting nurse, I took care of a guy with uncontrolled diabetes, and it was killing him. He was a Jehovah's Witness, and he told me it didn't really matter whether he controlled his disease because his religion taught him that every thing's just temporary anyway. I never saw anybody living in such complete poverty, he couldn't afford the food or medicine he needed, and he refused to accept any kind of assistance. But he had this stack of new books he had bought from the church. He was a man without education or sophistication
This is why I think that Moscow is right in banning the Witnesses. They produce this kind of mentality, which you obviously support. The organization should've taken care of him if they were so loving.
Your theory on David Koresh and Jim Jones is just that, theory.
Are you denying the deaths by caused by the WT? Are they theory? Which part is theory? I only mentioned facts. They even had a magazine lauding teen suicides by refusing to have a transfusion.
You say there has to be something wrong with placing more value on books than life and I agree. But it is that young mans choice. Maybe to him, the hope of everlasting life in a perfect earth is more valuable than his dying body. I give him credit for his strong faith. And the nurse should be sanctioned for discussing any patient in public. Not a nurse I'd want!
For the second time, where in the article does it say the witness was YOUNG? It is a choice only when you are not under mental control. It is the duty of those in the medical professions to make decisions for a person when those decisions are obviously done under duress. As for the nurse, again I repeat to you, the patient?s identity was not revealed. What was revealed was that he was a Witness. She did society a favor by exposing the kind of mentality produced by the Publishing Corporation. You are not dealing with people brainwashed to keep quiet about the dangers of belonging to their cult. You are dealing with people who see the need to prevent this kind of thinking.
About my taking the blinders off, who did I say Jesus was speaking of - his brothers - so what's your point? You just confirmed my point.
No. You still have your blinders on, and it means you don?t know who the brothers of Jesus according to the WTBT$ are. I?ll repeat it for you:
I love it when JWs show their character. To begin with, according to the WT, Jesus brothers are only the anointed.
This is why they have two classes of Christians. The brothers of Jesus, and the ones, who are no different from the rest of the world, and who will inherit the earth after Armaggeddon with all of resurrected humanity.
O.K. the point about the sisters I missed - of course they are included in the word brothers.
First the Witnesses save lives and then they publish it --- you tell me which they put first.
I never said Witnesses save lives or don?t. I think individually they save some, and if it were not because of the Tower?s policy, they would take blood transfusions, just as they now vaccinate, transplant organs, and take fractional blood transfusions. Do not confuse the issue. I think witnesses are basically good people who have been indoctrinated to put their love of the Brooklyn Corporation ahead of the natural love. The bad one is the Corporation. I know what a combination of mental control techniques and shunning can do to the individual.
Jesus and his disciples cured the sick because they were able to with Holy spirit. When they all died, that ability no longer was given.
Does that mean she (the holy spirit) does not work any longer? How can the organization say then that they work under her direction, and not cure the sick? Anyway, whether they would do it because of her or not. The main point is that they healed the sick. They (according to the bible) healed the body, and did not require membership.
We all know that GOD in the bible refers to Jehovah. Not just Witnesses.
Wrong again. I would suggest you start reading the section ?Bible Research and Study Articles? http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/default.ashx in this site and theology sites on the net.
Show me where in the bible?s New Testament is the word Jehovah mentioned. Don?t you think that the writers of the NT knew the word? Why would they choose not to say it?
The centurion was acting according to his makeup. Man was created in Gods image; therefore, he acted in a kindly manner.
That is correct. And that is why according to the bible he was anointed with Holy Spirit. Not because he even knew about Jesus or the bible.
The most important part of being Christian is to preach the good news. That was a command of Jesus. According to him, if you put that first in your life, all these other things will be added to you. Of course loving Jehovah and our fellowman is fully accomplished by preaching the good news of the kingdom.
According to whom? Most people in this country already know the ?good news? and they show it every day.
If preaching to non-jews was essential and a command of Jesus above all, why did it take an act of the holy spirit to preach to the nations?
You did not comment on the young man. Here are the texts:
Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Where in this story does Jesus mention that it is necessary to give worship to Jehovah to inherit eternal life? Jesus said to love God, not Jehovah. Jehovah is only the mythical Jewish god of war who was worshipped in Israel along with his consort until circa 300 BC.
Also notice that he added ?defraud?.
Defraud: 1. (v.) To deceive or trick into giving up a valuable possession
Note that it does not say to give the money to the Watchtower, a church, or any organization. The money should go to the poor, and it does not say ?the poor brothers?. It means any poor.
The WT makes people poor. Jesus wanted to help them.
Faraon
-
a friend in need
Faraon:
I was ready to wash my hands of this site but looked in for a quick glance and here goes again.
Why are you SO concerned that the man in question lives or dies. Does every news story get you SO riled? If he spent every cent he had on Lego Blocks and was a catholic, would you care? AND the nurse is unethical to talk about ANYpatient. Where I live, said nurse would lose his/her license.
Your reference to Moscow is frightening. Shades of Hitler?
Your slant on teen suicides is bit over the top.
I consider those of the annointed as my brothers.
Do you understand that the centurian lived in bible times and we actually live in the present? This is a different era and Jesus and his disciples are no longer on the earth? As I said the ones then had healing powers that aren't here today. The holy spirit DOES direct the gathering today, but no man has the poweres they had in Jesus time.
I repeat, we all know God in the bible is Jehovah.
Now read Mark 10 : 22 - 30. What you started there is a prelude to Jesus parable about a rich man entering into the Kingdom. You remember about the camel and the eye of a needle.
I've never seen the WT make anybody poor. I grew up SO poor, you would find it hard to believe. My mother started studying with Jehovah's Witnesses and we had a steady incline in our resources ever since. So don't talk to me about poor. And, yes, some of my income does go to help the poor, I just don't usually feel I have to explain.
a friend in need ( you see, I chose my name here well, I have indeed been a friend to many in need ).
-
galaxy7
AND the nurse is unethical to talk about ANYpatient. Where I live, said nurse would lose his/her license.
Wasnt there a wathctower or awake article that said a person working in the medical field must report to the elders if she knows a patient has come to the medical facility with a problem such as having an abortion, taking blood or anything else they might find that goes against the societies teachings.
maybe someone here can find the article i am talking about
-
a friend in need
galaxy7:
You are not naive enough not to see the difference here. Letting an elder know if a fellow Christian is about to do something against bible principals is a BIT different than broadcasting a patients business in a public newspaper.
a f i n
-
blondie
*** w87 9/1 pp. 12-15 "A Time to Speak"?When? ***
A
Time to Speak"?When?MARY works as a medical assistant at a hospital. One requirement she has to abide by in her work is confidentiality. She must keep documents and information pertaining to her work from going to unauthorized persons. Law codes in her state also regulate the disclosure of confidential information on patients.
One day Mary faced a dilemma. In processing medical records, she came upon information indicating that a patient, a fellow Christian, had submitted to an abortion. Did she have a Scriptural responsibility to expose this information to elders in the congregation, even though it might lead to her losing her job, to her being sued, or to her employer?s having legal problems? Or would Proverbs 11:13 justify keeping the matter concealed? This reads: "The one walking about as a slanderer is uncovering confidential talk, but the one faithful in spirit is covering over a matter."?Compare Proverbs 25:9, 10.
Situations like this are faced by Jehovah?s Witnesses from time to time. Like Mary, they become acutely aware of what King Solomon observed: "For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens: . . . a time to keep quiet and a time to speak." (Ecclesiastes 3:1, 7) Was this the time for Mary to keep quiet, or was it the time to speak about what she had learned?
Circumstances can vary greatly. Hence, it would be impossible to set forth a standard procedure to be followed in every case, as if everyone should handle matters the way Mary did. Indeed, each Christian, if ever faced with a situation of this nature, must be prepared to weigh all the factors involved and reach a decision that takes into consideration Bible principles as well as any legal implications and that will leave him or her with a clear conscience before Jehovah. (1 Timothy 1:5, 19) When sins are minor and due to human imperfection, the principle applies: "Love covers a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8) But when there seems to be serious wrongdoing, should a loyal Christian out of love of God and his fellow Christian reveal what he knows so that the apparent sinner can receive help and the congregation?s purity be preserved?
Applying
Bible PrinciplesWhat are some basic Bible principles that apply? First, anyone committing serious wrongdoing should not try to conceal it. "He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy." (Proverbs 28:13) Nothing escapes the notice of Jehovah. Hidden transgressions must eventually be accounted for. (Proverbs 15:3; 1 Timothy 5:24, 25) At times Jehovah brings concealed wrongdoing to the attention of a member of the congregation that this might be given proper attention.?Joshua 7:1-26.
Another Bible guideline appears at Leviticus 5:1: "Now in case a soul sins in that he has heard public cursing and he is a witness or he has seen it or has come to know of it, if he does not report it, then he must answer for his error." This "public cursing" was not profanity or blasphemy. Rather, it often occurred when someone who had been wronged demanded that any potential witnesses help him to get justice, while calling down curses?likely from Jehovah?on the one, perhaps not yet identified, who had wronged him. It was a form of putting others under oath. Any witnesses of the wrong would know who had suffered an injustice and would have a responsibility to come forward to establish guilt. Otherwise, they would have to ?answer for their error? before Jehovah.
This command from the Highest Level of authority in the universe put the responsibility upon each Israelite to report to the judges any serious wrongdoing that he observed so that the matter might be handled. While Christians are not strictly under the Mosaic Law, its principles still apply in the Christian congregation. Hence, there may be times when a Christian is obligated to bring a matter to the attention of the elders. True, it is illegal in many countries to disclose to unauthorized ones what is found in private records. But if a Christian feels, after prayerful consideration, that he is facing a situation where the law of God required him to report what he knew despite the demands of lesser authorities, then that is a responsibility he accepts before Jehovah. There are times when a Christian "must obey God as ruler rather than men."?Acts 5:29.
While oaths or solemn promises should never be taken lightly, there may be times when promises required by men are in conflict with the requirement that we render exclusive devotion to our God. When someone commits a serious sin, he, in effect, comes under a ?public curse? from the One wronged, Jehovah God. (Deuteronomy 27:26; Proverbs 3:33) All who become part of the Christian congregation put themselves under "oath" to keep the congregation clean, both by what they do personally and by the way they help others to remain clean.
Personal
ResponsibilityThese are some of the Bible principles Mary likely considered in making her personal decision. Wisdom dictated that she should not act quickly, without weighing matters very carefully. The Bible counsels: "Do not become a witness against your fellowman without grounds. Then you would have to be foolish with your lips." (Proverbs 24:28) To establish a matter conclusively, the testimony of at least two eyewitnesses is needed. (Deuteronomy 19:15) If Mary had seen only a brief mention of abortion, she might have decided conscientiously that the evidence of any guilt was so inconclusive that she should not proceed further. There could have been a mistake in billing, or in some other way the records may not have properly reflected the situation.
In this instance, however, Mary had some other significant information. For example, she knew that the sister had paid the bill, apparently acknowledging that she had received the service specified. Also, she knew personally that the sister was single, thus raising the possibility of fornication. Mary felt a desire lovingly to help one who may have erred and to protect the cleanness of Jehovah?s organization, remembering Proverbs 14:25: "A true witness is delivering souls, but a deceitful one launches forth mere lies."
Mary was somewhat apprehensive about the legal aspects but felt that in this situation Bible principles should carry more weight than the requirement that she protect the privacy of the medical records. Surely the sister would not want to become resentful and try to retaliate by making trouble for her, she reasoned. So when Mary analyzed all the facts available to her, she decided conscientiously that this was a time to "speak," not to "keep quiet."
Now Mary faced an additional question: To whom should she speak, and how could she do so discreetly? She could go directly to the elders, but she decided to go first privately to the sister. This was a loving approach. Mary reasoned that this one under some suspicion might welcome the opportunity to clarify matters or, if guilty, confirm the suspicion. If the sister had already spoken to the elders about the matter, likely she would say so, and Mary would not need to pursue matters further. Mary reasoned that if the sister had submitted to an abortion and had not confessed to this serious transgression of God?s law, she would encourage her to do this. Then the elders could help her in accord with James 5:13-20. Happily, this is how matters worked out. Mary found that the sister had submitted to an abortion under much pressure and because of being spiritually weak. Shame and fear had moved her to conceal her sin, but she was glad to get help from the elders toward spiritual recovery.
If Mary had reported first to the body of elders, they would have been faced with a similar decision. How would they handle confidential information coming into their possession? They would have had to make a decision based on what they felt Jehovah and his Word required of them as shepherds of the flock. If the report involved a baptized Christian who was actively associated with the congregation, they would have had to weigh the evidence as did Mary in determining if they should proceed further. If they decided that there was a strong possibility that a condition of "leaven" existed in the congregation, they might have chosen to assign a judicial committee to look into the matter. (Galatians 5:9, 10) If the one under suspicion had, in effect, resigned from being a member, not having attended any meetings for some time and not identifying herself as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses, they might choose to let the matter rest until such time as she did begin to identify herself again as a Witness.
Thinking
AheadEmployers have a right to expect that their Christian employees will ?exhibit good fidelity to the full,? including observing rules on confidentiality. (Titus 2:9, 10) If an oath is taken, it should not be taken lightly. An oath makes a promise more solemn and binding. (Psalm 24:4) And where the law reinforces a requirement on confidentiality, the matter becomes still more serious. Hence, before a Christian takes an oath or puts himself under a confidentiality restriction, whether in connection with employment or otherwise, it would be wise to determine to the extent possible what problems this may produce because of any conflict with Bible requirements. How will one handle matters if a brother or a sister becomes a client? Usually such jobs as working with doctors, hospitals, courts, and lawyers are the type of employment in which a problem could develop. We cannot ignore Caesar?s law or the seriousness of an oath, but Jehovah?s law is supreme.
Anticipating the problem, some brothers who are lawyers, doctors, accountants, and so forth, have prepared guidelines in writing and have asked brothers who may consult them to read these over before revealing anything confidential. Thus an understanding is required in advance that if serious wrongdoing comes to light, the wrongdoer would be encouraged to go to the elders in his congregation about the matter. It would be understood that if he did not do so, the counselor would feel an obligation to go to the elders himself.
There may be occasions when a faithful servant of God is motivated by his personal convictions, based on his knowledge of God?s Word, to strain or even breach the requirements of confidentiality because of the superior demands of divine law. Courage and discretion would be needed. The objective would not be to spy on another?s freedom but to help erring ones and to keep the Christian congregation clean. Minor transgressions due to sin should be overlooked. Here, "love covers a multitude of sins," and we should forgive "up to seventy-seven times." (Matthew 18:21, 22) This is the "time to keep quiet." But when there is an attempt to conceal major sins, this may be the "time to speak."
[Footnotes]Mary is a hypothetical person facing a situation that some Christians have faced. The way she handles the situation represents how some have applied Bible principles in similar circumstances.
In their Commentary on the Old Testament, Keil and Delitzsch state that a person would be guilty of error or sin if he "knew of another?s crime, whether he had seen it, or had come to the certain knowledge of it in any other way, and was therefore qualified to appear in court as a witness for the conviction of the criminal, neglected to do so, and did not state what he had seen or learned, when he heard the solemn adjuration of the judge at the public investigation of the crime, by which all persons present, who knew anything of the matter, were urged to come forward as witnesses."
[Picture on page 15]It is the right and loving course to encourage an erring Witness to speak with the elders, confident that they will handle the problem in a kind and understanding way
-
Gopher
Letting an elder know if a fellow Christian is about to do something against bible principals is a BIT different than broadcasting a patients business in a public newspaper.
Either action violates medical ethics and are offenses for which a medical staffer could be fired.
-
galaxy7
Thankyou Blondie
-
a friend in need
Gopher:
I think you are well aware that with Jehovah's Witnesses, God's laws take priority over mans laws. As the article Blondie posted shows, it is a matter of conscience to a point. If after talking to the patient and they do not go to the elders, it is the responsibility of the staffer to tell the elders. It is a command to keep the organization clean. If I was going to get fired here, I'd rather it be for keeping a clean conscince.
a f i n
-
Kenneson
A friend in need,
You state that some of your income does go to help the poor. If this is not limited to JWs and those you study with and their families, I indeed commend you. I'm not talking about just in times of disasters either, and I don't think you are. Now, hopefully, the Watchtower Society would follow your lead. If it does, that will be one less criticism they will hear from outsiders. Personally, I, too, help anyone in need that I am able to, whether JW or otherwise. I don't even care to know your religion if you need help; I don't ask. Moreover, they should stop criticizing those who do run soup kitchens, hospitals, ophanages, etc. which the Society does not and try to justify it by saying they are feeding people spiritual food and that is more important than physical food. It is, but let us see if Jws can live without eating physical food as well. If they cannot, how do they expect the needy to? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.