To the theists (Christian or otherwise).... (page 5)

logansrun

jgnat,

Interesting thoughts. I had always speculated that a created being seems more determined than free simply by the logic of causation, whereas and uncreated being would more likely have free will. You seem to be saying the opposite.

Bradley

Markfromcali

Can you see that this view of tormenting the tormenter actually reveals functioning from the same level of separation?

I just don't buy this. I have had 'round the round arguments with my daughter on this same subject. In a nutshell, this is her argument.
All killing is bad.
Killing the killer is as bad as being a killer yourself.

I said nothing about killing, I was talking about torment, which is what you said in the first post.

Execution would be different, punishment is another story. Execution would be more in line with eliminating the torment, punishment can take different forms and it's hard to say what it'll do. One thing that can happen, though, is perpetuating a violent dynamic. The point is we want to stop that whole dynamic, isn't it? You want the suffering to die, to 'kill the tormenter' as it were. But that is not the same as tormenting the tormenter, not by a long shot. The first deletes it, the second multiplies it.

Markfromcali

Don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I want to make one more point to jgnat:

Even if there is justice for an individual that was wronged by another, does that automatically heal them? It may be of some comfort, but healing is something else. You don't need to wait for justice for healing to happen, but it is possible to be too focused on justice so that healing is neglected.

jgnat

But that is not the same as tormenting the tormenter, not by a long shot. The first deletes it, the second multiplies it.

Again, this is treating torment as an absolute evil, and that God could somehow perpetuate evil or multiply evil by imposing such a punishment. Again, you are judging the act as evil as the intent. (Like saying that murder is the same as execution, since they both kill.)

In the Hitler example, could such an evil man be rehabilitated? I don't think so. In a million lifetimes, could he have made reparations for all the evil he perpetuated on those he tormented? I don't think so. Would many who had been maimed or killed because of this man, like a chance to tell him to his face what he had done to them? Probably. Would such a man be able to accept those words? Likely not, he was completely self-absorbed. That leaves punishment as the only just way to balance the scales for the millions of unvoiced screams of pain he created. Let him feel the pain, even if he is incapable of understanding that he deserves it. Does it bring full satisfaction to the victims, to see him punished in this manner? Perhaps not. Some have likely covered the scars and moved on. I am saying just punishment is not only for rehabilitation, or to heal survivors, but to balance the scales properly. Would a just God get vicarous thrill from meting out this torment? I believe not! When I disciplined my child for even minor disobedience, it cut me to the heart. I did it though, for the ultimate goal of raising a civilized human being. (The Hitler example, however, would not have the goal of rehabilitation, as I have said already). I think the concept of Justice stands on it's own merit, and that only a just God can administer such a punishment with good intent. All those who practice evil should fear this ultimate justice, and beware!

Markfromcali

But that is not the same as tormenting the tormenter, not by a long shot. The first deletes it, the second multiplies it.

Again, this is treating torment as an absolute evil, and that God could somehow perpetuate evil or multiply evil by imposing such a punishment. Again, you are judging the act as evil as the intent. (Like saying that murder is the same as execution, since they both kill.)

No, all of that is additions you made to frame it according to your worldview. I know that's how this thread has been going, but I don't even frame things in terms of good and evil, I merely stated the effect such dynamics would have, you added judgements of good and evil as well as God. Of course, I am not framing it in terms of discrete entities, but just the activity of torment itself, by its very nature of being torment. I am simply saying tormenting torment, in itself is a multiplication. Just looking at each thing for what it is, killing as a putting end to, and so on.

Of course, I can see that if you do view things in terms of separate entities justice becomes very significant, but then if you are so separate why the need to 'balance' things? Mind you, I am not saying criminals should run free, but I am now exploring the differences of these views. The whole reason to establish such balance would seem to be there is some kind of connection, otherwise it would be a matter of healing the individual, and a separate thing to punishment the wrongdoer. You seem to be drawing a connection between the healing of the wronged and the punishment of the wrongdoer. Incidentally I don't view things as so separate, but then this would have big implications.

It's one thing to talk about ourselves, it's another to consider the big picture. The personal perspective is inevitably a projection, which doesn't make it bad - but it's clearly limited. This is why I made the second post about distinguishing individual healing and justice. If you want to talk about the big picture, that's nothing less than healing of the world - but it's dangerous to project from that limited perspective when you're dealing with something that big. There are well meaning people in the world who try to bring healing about, but when it is enmeshed with the confusion of their own suffering that inevitably gets transmitted as well - good intention isn't enough in this case because they don't see where they're at. Again, because it is well meaning that may come through - the ones on the receiving end would know they mean well. But if the recipient doesn't see the confusion then that unconsciousness continues to be perpetuated, and that just doesn't help anybody. This can be quite subtle as it often takes the form of rationalizations, taking refuge in the mind, in thoughts. I would recommend taking refuge in the heart, but I hesitate to say even that much because of the tendancy to identify with the content, which is of course tied in with thoughts.

Please, whatever you do don't rationalize things away, you will ultimately find it doesn't go deep enough, and is simply not real enough - not to mention you will just prolong the suffering. If nothing else, just go deep into your own heart, not for even the deepest feelings, but for what it actually is.

beaker

Being only newly freed from the WTS, there are many people who were my friends that i would like to be able to explain the TRUTH about many of the points raised on this board. So i have decided to compile a publication that i can mail to them with short succinct, hardhitting reasoning on areas where the WTS is misleading them and also areas where they are saying one thing but practising another. I would like to be able to limit the explanations to one topic per page with the hope that if there is not too much too read they may just bother to read it.

I have read some brilliant explanations in the posts on this board, so i am asking for a little help. Bible quotations are good and so are pictures.

Please give me some thoughts on chapter 1 which will be titled "Did Jesus die on a cross or a stake?"

Thanks

Beaker

beaker

sorry, that was meant to be a new topic

Markfromcali

Beaker, that could be a big undertaking if you take into account the psychological impact it has on people, which will be different and actually go deeper than psychology in some cases. It's not that complicated to point out the errors in JW teachings, but what will happen to each person as they take that in gets pretty hairy and complicated. For the truly devout, if you really succeed you are in effect killing them, because to someone who identifies with that mindset destroying it is like destroying who they are. It may be good for someone who have decided (and therefore already have a clue) to question everything, but it's always good to have a living person there to feel things out.

**** Forum .. Bosses(?), this has been posted to the new thread, feel free to delete

LittleToe

Rem:
I was simply taking it from a "logical" position, since both good and evil exist and are often considered to be polar opposites.

I'll grant you that they are not, but rather can be considered interpretations of experience. To one person an experience might be sheer hell, to another a mere irritant.

Bradley:I wasn't putting forth my own view.
The truth of the matter (coz you know I'm just as candid with what I don't know, right?) is that I haven't come to any settled or satisfactory conclusion on the subject.

Doctrinally I have a place in my heart for "predestination", but "double-predestination" (wherein some are predestined to an awful post-life existance) doesn't sound so cool.

Experientially I believe in a personal "God" because of the way that I've interacted with "Him". Whilst there have been things brought into my experience that some would consider evil (castigation by former family and friends, loss of wife, etc.) I have to declare that "all things work to the good, for those that love Him" (Rom.8:28) and "count it all joy" (Js.1:2).

I don't know how to reconcile that with widescale disasters, though.

Corvin

Regarding "free will", is it not so that many of our choices in life are a matter of deciding which is the lessor of two evils? Choosing between mere good and evil would be too easy. God seems to allow for lots of shades of grey.

As was said before, the WTBTS's explanation of why God permits evil is probably the most well thought out I can think of, and such an explanation isn't limited or confined within the WT's other teachings and could be given weight when applied to many other religious doctrines from other faiths.

Personally, if I were God, I would have made the earth like an Echa-sketch; when mankind goes too far south, just shake it and start over . . . that's shaken, not stirred. :oP

Corvin

To the theists (Christian or otherwise)....

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