by logansrun 80 Replies latest watchtower bible
Bradley:
I would place myself in Augustine's company as I recently mentioned, on another thread, last week:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/70179/1122973/post.ashx#1122973
"God" may well be everywhere, experiencing it all, having laid out the entire scope of "time" within a single teardrop in eternity" LT 29-Apr-04
peaceful pete: yup.
I get slapped in the face by how it all makes sense when viewed from a 'scientific' view. I emphasize that I do not mean by that that this is not about whether there is a god or not. It's just so wholey obvious that god used naturalistic mechanisms. We are our biology.
I think, really the JW take on it (god sees if he wants to) would result in YHWH being charged for being stupid whilst in charge of a universe. Imagine "the whole of reality is at my control AND I'VE GOT MY EYES CLOSED!!!"
This is in the 'next' catagory as far as conceptions of god you'd want to worship go.
Augustine definately wanted his cake and to eat it... "yes I have freewill and I my fate is predetermined". It actually sounds more like someone who realises freewill (at least externally) is demonstrable but feels that the scripturs point to predestination and can't let go of either common sense or scripture. Thus is the bloody stupid born.
As to whether freewill is determinable externally, I think freewill (ability to desire what thou wilt) and free action (ability to do what thou wilt) are different.
But it's Friday, and it's 6pm so I'm off home
If God was "in time" from a human perspective, why not simply use His foreknowledge to show his creatures (both human and angel) what WOULD happen if humans ruled themselves?
That is an issue a "wanting to be a JW again" friend of mine raised recently while we were discussing various issues and I expressed many doubts about various aspects of the faith. I couldn't provide any light at all for him concerning that question. Interesting though, isn't it.
I also believe that the God I have defined within my mind exists outside of the physical mechanism of time which afterall is defined and measured from a human perspective. The divisions we have created suit our needs, but to God he should be able to divide further into our fractions to infinity, and exist within one of those infinite divisions for an eternity if that was his desire to do so.
Time can be stretched - I have witnessed that when I used to use mind altering substances. Time becomes meaningless in an hightened state of awareness .
Little Toe,
The Augustinian concept of God and time seems to solve some questions yet raise others. For instance, what does it mean for God to exist "outside time"? God is said to have a personality and a consciousness, but does not a personality require time? Any concept of a God experience the whole of eternity in one gigantic "Whooosh!" almost puts Him on par with a non-personal force. Hey, maybe when need frankiespeakin back in the conversation!
El blanko,
I hope you're able to reason with your friend.
Time can be stretched - I have witnessed that when I used to use mind altering substances. Time becomes meaningless in an hightened state of awareness .
I've smoked cannabis on all of three occasions in my life. One time didn't do anything to me. One time just made me a little giddy and hungry. And one time was the strangest experience I've ever had. (It was with one of those water pipe thingies) Blinking seemed like an eternity. I believe the parts of the brain responsible for short-term memory are altered and/or stop functioning. But time is not actually stretched in this instance, just your perception of it. Now relativity theory (I believe another thread is talking about this) is totally different. Time actually is different in reality then. Strange.
Bradley
DId some one mention my name???
No you guys don't need me to come over their yet. Your just getting warmed up.LOL
Bradley:
God is said to have a personality and a consciousness, but does not a personality require time?
Why? Since we are time-bound, if time stops then so do our biological processes, but we aren't talking about a human, are we? We are trying to describe something that successfully exists outside of time.
Any concept of a God experience the whole of eternity in one gigantic "Whooosh!" almost puts Him on par with a non-personal force
Two points to address here - first off, why does it have to be a "whoosh", instead of an ever-present "now"?
Secondly, why do you think that would put Him on a par with a non-personal force? How on earth are you defining non-personal forces? Is electricity or the wind ever-present?
Gotta love philosophy, huh?
I just want to add, for Gyles' benefit, that I was specifically talking about Augustine's view of God existing outside time, regarding my alignment.
Don't you just love non-falsifiable hyptheses? What if there really is no such thing as time and god created us, the universe, and all of our memories a billionth of a second ago?
rem
Little Toe,
"Whoosh", "Eternal Now".....same thing.
rem,
Although this matter is empirically non-falsifiable I think it's important to approach it from a logical perspective. If an answer to theodicy is logically consistent that would not prove or disprove the matter; it would simply make it a possibility (even if far-fetched). On the other hand, if a theodicy (or God concept, or whatever) is not logically consistent than that puts a double whammy on the matter.
So, just to get back on track....no theist has any clues?
Bradley
Nobody has a clue all though we do all have some type of speculation,,and that speculation may be 100% true and you will never know.
Frankie:
I agree - we will never know in this life.
Rem:
We're trying out for Philosophy 101, here. Why don't ya join in with some opinions, instead of sniping from the sidelines?
Bradley:
I see that you are up to "T" in the dictionary.
T - Theodicy.
Sesame Street was brought to you today with the letters T and P and the number 1.
Since when did "Eternity" go by like a "whoosh"?
Just to argue semantics, for a moment, "whoosh" surely indicates something that passes fast within time, like a split second or something. Eternity surely has an entirely different nature, in that your whoosh could just as easily be a "wwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosssssssshhhhhhhhh!!!" or longer (from the perspective of a time-bound creature, freed from the restraints of time).
