by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible
Flash
Why would you agree that
to say that God created Adam and Eve WITHOUT freedom to choose whether to sin would be crediting God with evil
Does that make our law makers (government) guilty of the laws they make, simply for defining the law? Why does creating something that is lacking one or more ingredients credit God with sin? Can't he add those ingredients when and how he wants, to complete his creation or his plan?
D Dog
This shows that people who have been "enlightened" can be blotted out, IF they have not "overcome" by being Born Again.
Well I didn't read that huge long post except for this last statement, but I find this of interest.
Having a JW and thus some bible background myself and knowledge of other spiritual traditions that explicitly talks about enlightenment, I think it bears pointing out that enlightenment essentially means being "blotted out" - in that the illusion of ego is extinguished. Yes, there is a process that corresponds to this idea of being Born Again, but frankly if the ego dies then what is there to be saved? It is not what the ego considers the soul, because that's just a belief you hang on to and that whole complex of belief structure is gone, or more specifically seen through as illusory. This is of course why Jesus said, I paraphrase: 'he that seeks to save his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul will save it.' The real thing doesn't happen nearly as often as people would like to think - because that's just their belief. Frankly far too often the belief is just plain wrong anyway, but even if it is right beliefs are only beliefs.
Mark:
It is exactly because of the similarities in experience to my own "Christian" one that I don't discount anyone. Besides, who am I to judge?
The key is submission of the ego.
IMHO that may be easier to do within the Christian ethos, than the Zen one, however. The reason being found in the question "What (or who) do I submit to?", wherein the object of that submission is then internalised or more correctly universalised.
Walking a "Christian" life or a life of "humility" is (IMHO) a fruit (rather than a precursor) of such experience, which I believe it is open to all who will accept it.
HI Littletoe:
It is exactly because of the similarities in experience to my own "Christian" one that I don't discount anyone. Besides, who am I to judge?
No, it is not about judging - but the point is it isn't about belief, that is it is not about any mental process, I'm sure you'd agree it goes deeper than that.
IMHO that may be easier to do within the Christian ethos, than the Zen one, however. The reason being found in the question "What (or who) do I submit to?", wherein the object of that submission is then internalised or more correctly universalised.
I can see where you're coming from, but remember in Zen atleast the surrender is so unconditional that there is no longer separation of subject and object, and thus no 'doing'.
Walking a "Christian" life or a life of "humility" is (IMHO) a fruit (rather than a precursor) of such experience, which I believe it is open to all who will accept it.
It starts that way, but as there is ultimately no separation it is not about experience and anyone who has an experience. To quote Wei Wu Wei: "True humility is the absence of anyone to be proud." This to me is the point where you can say someone is 'Born Again'. Until that point the process has simply not been completed. So it is just a matter of being specific as to where things are in the overall process. I believe they also call it stream entry, where 'you' are not coming back. "No one has love greater than this, that he should give his life on behalf of his friends."
Agreed on all counts.
What's amazing is that people don't "get it", when you have no pride.
Everything takes on a completely different tone.
I spent a while confused, when trying to intellectualise it, rather than just "being".
We are prone to attempt to once again take on the weight of ego, "thinking" that there may be more, when reality has already been attained.
Sadly, the slippery stepping-stone of religion does much to contribute to this mindset.
Edited to add:I recently started reading "The Way to Love" (as recommended by JamesThomas), and found it to be a breath of fresh air.
Does anybody actually read these long frikin' posts???
UD,
If you want to make a point.....
Get in.
Get out.
As quickly as possible.
Otherwise it is SNOOZE CITY for 98% of the population.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
EyeDrEvil
LT:
We are prone to attempt to once again take on the weight of ego, "thinking" that there may be more, when reality has already been attained.
I just read this today: "Reality does not seek reality, reality does not obtain reality, reality does not practice reality, reality does not see reality, but finds its way naturally."
Does that make our law makers (government) guilty of the laws they make, simply for defining the law? Why does creating something that is lacking one or more ingredients credit God with sin?
D Dog I think its apples and oranges. God who creates can (and did) provide the ability for humans to maintain perfect law. Humans do not have that ability, they can only create laws, not the ability to obey them perfectly.
Can't he add those ingredients when and how he wants, to complete his creation or his plan?
Would that be loving? Not in my opinion.
Deputy Dog said:
Why where you "enlightened with the truth of the Gospel by The Spirit" and others are not? Why do you believe in the Holy Scriptures, "that they are the Word of God." and others don't?
As I have said before, God is the One who chooses who He wants to enlighten and who He does not want to enlighten. The Bible shows that there were some whom God chose to NEVER enlighten. (John 6:64-66) Pharaoh may indeed have been one of those whom God chose to NEVER enlighten. Let me ask you one question, please, Deputy Dog: Did God create sin and death?
Ellderwho said:
Weve been through this before and you still never answered by your definition " when was Pharaoh given a choice????
Ro. 9:16,17 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, R455 but on God R456 who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR R457 THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT F158 THE WHOLE EARTH."
I never said that everyone is given a choice. I said that God chooses whom He wants to enlighten, and then He gives that person a choice of choosing to repent or to reject Jesus.
From the Bible, it appears that God never did enlighten Pharoah, or if He did, Pharoah rejected God.
Ellderwho said:
Of Ro. 11:3-8
Or R528 do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY R529 HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is F183 the divine response to him? "I R530 HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a R531 remnant according to God's gracious F184 choice. 6 But if R532 it is by grace, it is no longer on F185 the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel R533 is seeking, it has not obtained, but those F186 who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; R534 8 just as it is written, "GOD R535 GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
1.Explain how the seven thousand "CHOOSE" not to bow the knew before Baal.
Well, how did anyone in the Bible choose not to bow down to false gods? Are you saying that God forced Daniel's 3 Hebrew friends to NOT bow down to the false god?
What about this Scripture in Joshua?
Joshua 24: 14-15: "Now therefore, fear the L ord , serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the L ord ! And if it seems evil to you to serve the L ord , choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the L ord ."
Are you saying that those people whom Joshua said had to CHOOSE whether to worship God or false gods actually DID NOT have freedom to choose?
Also, what about Deuteronomy Chapter 30 where Israel is given A MAJOR CHOICE:
Deuteronomy 30:15-20: "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the L ord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the L ord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the L ord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the L ord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."
Are you saying that those Israelites did NOT actually have freedom to choose, even though the Bible says that they did?
Ellderwho said:
2. Why was Israel seeking an unable to obtain it?
I'll let the Scriptures answer:
Romans 11:8: "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
Jesus Himself explained that God does NOT choose to enlighten all people:
Mark 4:11: And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
Also, the Bible shows that God can choose to blind and darken people AFTER they have chosen to reject Him:
Psalm 81:11-16: " But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels. " Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways! I would soon subdue their enemies, And turn My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the L ord would pretend submission to Him, But their fate would endure forever. He would have fed them also with the finest of wheat; And with honey from the rock I would have satisfied you."
2nd Corinthians 3:14-16: But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The Bible also shows that people can be enlightened just by looking at God's creation, and then, if they reject God, God gives them up to their own wickedness: Romans 1:18-32: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Ellderwho said:
3. Why are those choosen, do obtain it?
I will let Jesus answer:
Luke 14:11: For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Ellderwho said:
4. Why are the rest harden with no "CHOICE"?
See the Scriptures I posted above. It is either because God never enlightened them OR it is because they rejected God after being enlightened.
Ellderwho said:
5. Why would God give them a spirit of stupor if they were entitled to a choice?
6. Why would God make their eyes not to see, if they were entitled to a choice?
7. Why would God give them ears that were unable to hear, if they were entitled to a choice?
I never said that anyone is "entitled" to a choice. I base my beliefs on the Scriptures, the Word of God.
The Bible shows that God chooses whom He wants to enlighten, and then they are given a choice and are given time to choose whether or not to repent.
I think the Scriptures I posted above should answer your questions.
Ellderwho said:
Undis you want God on your terms not his.
I take God at HIS WORD. I base my beliefs and faith ONLY on His Inspired, Holy, Infallible Scriptures.
Can you refute ANY of my statements using the Scriptures?
