Ellderwho said:
Undis,
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) From the Bible, it appears that God never did enlighten Pharoah, or if He did, Pharoah rejected God. (End of Quote)
Wait a minute, didnt you say; (Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) God desires ALL HUMANS to be saved -- Jesus died for ALL HUMANS: (End of Quote)
Doesnt Pharoah get a chance? Or how bout Esau?
Ellderwho, you make it sound like I am making up the fact that God desires all men to be saved. Ellderwho, I have asked
YOU and Deputy Dog
SEVERAL TIMES, did the Apostle Paul write that "God desires all men to be saved" or did he NOT write that statement, in 1st Timothy Chapter 2? Did the Apostle Paul lie when writing that statement? Or is it that you just choose to ignore that statement because it does not fit in with your belief system? What did the Apostle Paul mean when he made that statement? Just because God
desires all men to be saved does not mean that He is
obligated to enlighten anyone. No one at all deserves to be enlightened. It is only by God's GRACE and MERCY and LOVE that anyone is ever enlightened. God was not obligated to enlighten Pharaoh or Esau, or even Moses or Abraham. Salvation is a FREE GIFT which cannot be earned or deserved by anyone at all. God chooses to
offer this FREE GIFT to whoever He so chooses according to His will. Ellderwho said:
Undis, did you NOT read the passage? God states I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF. What part of reserved infers they had a choice?
Look at the context, what was God speaking about? Romans 11:3-4 (NKJV):
"L ord , they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars,
and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him?
"I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal
." God was talking about reserving His people
ALIVE, in other words, safeguarding them and keeping them
LIVING. God was
not discussing reserving people for eternal salvation in that particular Verse. Ellderwho said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) What about this Scripture in Joshua? Joshua 24: 14-15: "Now therefore, fear the L ord , serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the L ord ! And if it seems evil to you to serve the L ord , choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the L ord ." (End of Quote)
What about it? Does his household have a choice?
Did Joshua or did Joshua not say that those people had to CHOOSE who they were going to worship? Are you saying that Joshua was forcing his household to believe in God? What are you trying to say? Look at the rest of the context: Joshua 24:19-25: But Joshua said to the people, "You cannot serve the L ord , for He
is a holy God. He
is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
If you forsake the L ord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good." And the people said to Joshua,
"No, but we will serve the L ord !" So Joshua said to the people,
"You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the L ord for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "
We are witnesses!" "Now therefore,"
he said, "put away the foreign gods which
are among you, and incline your heart to the L ord God of Israel." And the people said to Joshua, "The L ord our God we will serve, and His voice we will obey!" So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. Now, you answer me, please -- did Joshua say that those people CHOSE God for themselves, or did Joshua NOT say that? What does that statement mean? You tell me. Ellderwho said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Deuteronomy 30:15-20:......... Are you saying that those Israelites did NOT actually have freedom to choose, even though the Bible says that they did? (End of Quote)
Is it in our power to love God?
It is NOT within our power to love God UNTIL we have been enlightened and UNTIL we have The Holy Spirit leading us to repentance and convicting us of our sins. My question remains: "Are you saying that those Israelites did NOT actually have freedom to choose,
even though the Bible says that they did?" Ellderwho said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Ellderwho said: 2. Why was Israel seeking an unable to obtain it?
I'll let the Scriptures answer:
Romans 11:8: "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." (End of Quote)
Stay in context undis, dont jump right to verse 8 without considering what verse 5 states; 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a R531 remnant according to God's gracious F184 choice.
Do you see why Israel was unable to obtain it?
That in no way contradicts what I have been saying all along. God chooses whom He wants to enlighten, and He chooses whom he does NOT want to enlighten. It is God who chooses us first. Ellderwho said:
This is the same problem you had with Mannesseh in 2Chron.33:10-12 Your giving man the credit.
I'm giving man the credit? The only thing man deserves is to be sent to Hell for eternity. Am I giving man too much "credit"? Manasseh rejected God for YEARS, then God brings affliction upon Manasseh, so that ONLY THEN, does Manasseh choose to humble himself and repent and be saved, AFTER God causes him affliction and pain. God chose Manasseh first, then it was up to Manasseh to choose whether or not to "humble himself". Manasseh could have chosen to harden his heart even further and completely reject God, but he did not do that. 2nd Chronicles 33: 21-23: Amon was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned two years in Jerusalem. But he did evil in the sight of the L ord , as his father Manasseh had done; for Amon sacrificed to all the carved images which his father Manasseh had made, and served them. And he did not humble himself before the L ord , as his father Manasseh had humbled himself; but Amon trespassed more and more. That Scripture is showing that Amon COULD HAVE chosen to humble himself just like his father did, but he refused to do so. Ellderwho said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Jesus Himself explained that God does NOT choose to enlighten all people:
Mark 4:11: And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, (End of Quote)
Your point is weak.
Are you saying that Jesus' statement was weak or what are you saying? Jesus showed clearly that God only enlightens the people He chooses -- so that they can understand the "mystery of the Kingdom of God". John 6:44 shows that God The Father does NOT choose to draw all people to Jesus, but only the ones He chooses. Ellderwho said:
Undis, Ive showed you refutations to your arguments, you continue to give empty statements like; (Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) From the Bible, it appears (End of Quote)
It appears what? Appears to you?
From Romans Chapter 9, it appears that Pharaoh was never enlightened by God, however that cannot be absolutely stated, because
no where in the Bible does it say "Pharaoh was not given a chance to repent". It makes it
sound like Pharaoh was not given a chance, but it does not directly state this. Ellderwho said:
It appears you dismiss Gods sovereignty when shown a rebuttal to your so-called choice after enlightenment.
Do I dismiss God's sovereignty? Here are my Bible-based beliefs about God and His Sovereignty: * God created all things. * God knows all things -- past, present, future. * God exists outside of time and space -- He created time and space -- He exists in ETERNITY. * God is totally, completely, absolutely Sovereign -- Everything that happens was either caused by Him OR allowed by Him. Nothing can happen without God allowing it to happen. * God is Omnipresent -- in all places at the same time. * God is Almighty -- He has no limit to His power. * God is infinitely Holy, infinitely Loving, infinitely Just, and infinitely Wise. * Nothing can surprise God. God knew every minute detail of what would happen before He ever created anything. Do I dismiss God's sovereignty?
Ellderwho said:
I too will not take your test
That's fine. Those are my sincere questions about your beliefs, but you don't have to answer them, even though I would like to understand your beliefs better. Ellderwho said:
I suggest a long study of Romans 9 when pondering this thought of yours; (Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) * Does God DESIRE that all men be saved, or does God only desire that certain men be saved who were foreordained for salvation? (End of Quote)
I have studied Romans Chapter 9 ALOT, and I am going to study it again right here, and comment on it: Romans 9:10-13 (NKJV): And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." My comments: God chose to enlighten Jacob, but He chose NOT to enlighten Esau. Why? Because He is God and He wanted to. Romans 9:14-18 (NKJV): What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. My comments: God has mercy on whomever He chooses. God hardens whomever He chooses. Because He is Sovereign. Amen! Like I said before, it does indeed appear that Pharaoh was NOT ever enlightened by God, but I can't be 100% certain on that. Romans 9:19-24: You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? My comments: God does what He chooses to do. Humans are just clay in God's hands. He can choose to enlighten us or He can leave us in the dark. Ellderwho said:
Lets stick to one question at a time and work with it.
Sounds good. Which question do you want to start with? Ellderwho said:
BTW you never answered about Mannessahs choice. E.
I could have sworn that I already answered your questions using Scriptures in the Trinity Thread, but if not, I apologize. Above in this same post, I have given my final answer for your Manasseh questions, using the Bible.
