Freedom to Choose God (page 7)

ellderwho

UnD,

Your positions seems to rest wholly on this enlightenment issue, IMHO a kinda of grace for a grace period for man to ponder the fact that the Father has given him an "insight" to a relationship with himself(God). And man is going to choose to take the lifesaver or drown.

I find several, many problems with this understanding you present. In the end man has a tiny little bit of works...... He has to choose.

If Im "enlightened" and now I have this special insight into a relationship with the savior, whats stopping me from putting off the chioce until I feel like Im ready to "clean-up" and take God up on his offer.

Why not just wait till a deathbed confession then I could get all the fleshly sinning out of the way, or I could wait until Im later on in years maybe late 70s as a target age to take God up on his offer.

Why not, I know the "lifesaver" is floating next to me the rest of my life and all I have to do is grab it in case of a near death experience.

UnD,

You have proven to me, even when shown from a simple example as Mannassehs' that no matter what the scripture clearly states, you repeat the same verse back to me with your chioce slant.

You continue to admit that God chooses to draw, but deny that its Gods will, that God gets what he wants. Regardless of what man thinks he wants.

Then you try to blanket the issue with God wants all to be saved thinking, and Jesus died for everyone, without understanding that God Has already predestined his choosing and we can somehow effect this choice that was made before the founding of the earth.

To debate scripture with you is a waste of time. You feel if you show me 25 verses that imply a chioce and I show you 20 verses that dont, then you have somehow won.

In the case of Pharoah you must assume a very very vital part of your postion.

In the case of Gods sovereignty you dont have to re-invent the wheel, in the corridor time, and Gods insight on time, can we agree that God knows when he draws someone its not for a choice game thats being played out.

E

LittleToe

Ah, the joys of doctrinal debate.

Let's shake hands, brothers, and enjoy the freedom of Christian Liberty.
We don't need to major on the minors.

Can we at least agree that Christ is our all, in all (thanks be to God)?

Deputy Dog

UnDisfellowshipped You said,

My so-called "test", was simply a list of sincere questions that I truly would like to know your answers for, so I can understand your beliefs better.

I find that hard to believe, because your first post on this thread was a series of points you made on another thread, that either myself or elderwho rebutted. You surely know how we feel on most of the issues you question us on. As for Hebrews 10: 28-29 I think these verses deal more with those who say they believe the gospel, but continue to willfully sin.

The Bible shows that those who have been enlightened and reject Christ will receive a MUCH WORSE PUNISHMENT in Hell than those who died under Moses' Law.

And people accuse Calvin's God of coercion.

Think of it this way: A man, who cannot swim, is drowning. Another person comes along and offers him a lifesaver. The drowning man then rejects the lifesaver, and hence drowns. The man was going to drown already, but the other man did offer him the chance to live, but he rejected it and drowned.

I think this is the most telling part of our disagreement. The bible tells me not to think that way. Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened , who were dead in trespasses and sins; The bible teaches I was dead in trespasses and sins, not drowning, not sick, not dying, but D E A D, dead, dead, dead!!! Why would you offer a dead man a life saver (I think you mean preserver)? What I needed was a g rappling hook! not a choice. Jesus quickened my spirit, the same way he raised Lazarus from the dead. He didn't offer Lazarus a choice of life or death, He didn't ask him if he wanted to be raised. He didn't go to him when he was sick, he waited until he was dead. Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) quickened means; made alive. One more thing. You said:

Did you not repent of your sins and put your faith in Christ

I did repent out of gratitude, but I didn't put my faith in Christ. He put His faith in me. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Faith in Christ is a gift my friend. Not a choice! Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. D Dog

LittleToe

I wouldn't word it quite the way you just did, DDog, but I agree with what you're saying (Esp. Eph2).

Life is a free gift (grace).
All we are required to do is to respond by accepting it.
Even the "faith" which is required for this simple act is a gift of God (or more approprately a fruit of the Spirit, freely given).

It's all of God.

Deputy Dog

LT

All we are required to do is to respond by accepting it.

Where is that in those verses? I don't see any response called for in chapters one two or three. In fact your last point is right on.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It's all of God.

Amen!

D Dog

Thanks LT

LittleToe

DDog:

Where is that in those verses?

It's not. That was the LT paraphrased version
Most of my beliefs come from an experiential "faith". It just so happens that it accords with Calvinistic doctrine.

In your own case you were able to say "Thank you Jesus!".
Is that not acceptance of that which has graciously been provided?
In our own cases, it was spontaneous. Others struggle for years.

Had you said, thought, or felt "No thank you, Jesus!", that would have been a different matter.
Though I'm not infering that we only get only one such opportunity, in this lifetime.

ellderwho

D.Dog,
Jesus quickened my spirit, the same way he raised Lazarus from the dead. He didn't offer Lazarus a choice of life or death,

Dog, didnt Jesus shake Lazarus a little bit and whisper in his ear "hey Im enlighting you, would you like to get up now"???

I think another good scripture to look at is the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus;Jo.3:4-7

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water R128 and the Spirit he cannot enter into the R129 kingdom of God. 6 "That R130 which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.' F42

Why didnt Jesus tell Nicodemus your going to have to choose only after the spirit "enlightens" you??

Choice is the only thing that appears to turn salvation into a conditional gift!

E

Deputy Dog

LT I would say it was an acknowledgement or just an expression of gratitude. It really doesn't matter. I didn't see that I had any choice to make. If you get a statement from your creditors saying "your bills have already been paid" It's a little late to say too your creditors don't take the money. D Dog

Deputy Dog

Elderwho

Dog, didnt Jesus shake Lazarus a little bit and whisper in his ear "hey Im enlighting you, would you like to get up now"???

I don't know. If he didn't come forth would the crowd have thought "I guess he said No"

I wonder if he slapped him around a few times to show everyone he was dead.

Seriously though, I think another good scripture would be John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

It's a shame, that more pastors and bible teachers don't take the time to explain what this means and talk about how desperate our situation is when it comes to our sin.

LittleToe

Doncha just love Irresistable Grace?

Freedom to Choose God

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