Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    The Westminster Confession of Faith

    Chapter 3

    Of God's Eternal Decree

    I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

    III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

    IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

    LT

    Look at the scriptures proofs for paragraph III.

    ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. EPH 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    You said that we should be silent where the scriptures are silent. I agree! What did I overstate? I have tried very hard, not to use my words in this thread, when addressing this topic, but, to use scripture!

    D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DDog:
    I am intimately conversant with that document and it's proofs, thanks
    I'm also acutely aware of how particular they were over the wording of it, to ensure inclusiveness of the Reformed Churches. The strongest contributors, in the formation of it, were Scots

    The point I was making is highlighted below:

    III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    I never used the term "Double-Predestination", you did. If its a problem, I can agree, that the wicked are foreordained to everlasting death. The results look the same to me. I can't wait to see your point.

    D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DDog:
    Oh, I have a point, alright (though I've already expressed my perspective).
    I'm just waiting to see where EW sits before I elaborate further

    PS The devil is in the detail, but ultimately "all things with Charity..."

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    EW:You say that Romans 9 is difficult to argue with. Nonetheless, may I ask again what your stance is?
    Do you believe that some are predestined to election and some predestined to probation?
    I should add that even the "Westminster Confession of Faith" is silent on determining the matter, in that it is very carefully worded. In Chapter three it declares that the Elect are predestined, but the probate are fore-ordained. The use of two terms is telling, in it's neutrality.

    I should add that if you've not come to a conclusion on the matter, that is just as appropriate an answer

    LT, I feel scripture is very clear in that man cannot alter what has been ordained. This is where I believe man has the greatest problem, trying to tinker with ordination.

    If it is taught in scripture that man can however small an infulence, sway, nudge himself over the top into Gods family, will have proven that man has a little bit of "free agency"

    E.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    EW:Ah but my question is far simpler than that.
    Do you feel that some are predestined to reprobation?

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    Do you feel that some are predestined to reprobation?

    What is the difference between foreordained and predestined?

    E.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Webster defines.

    DESTINED

    , pp. Ordained ; appointed by previous determination; devoted; fixed unalterably.
  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    LIke I say, the devil is in the detail.

    Ultimately this is a pernickity little point of logic, but it tore the church apart during the lapsarian controversy, hence my point about charity.

    I'd say that I'm nearer the Infralapsarian perspective than any other.

    The supralapsarian perspective, which the pair of you seem to espouse (feel free to contradict ), is nearer "high/hyper Calvinism", though I will grant you that they are not synonymous.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Fore ordain

    FORE
    ORDA'IN
    , v.t To ordain or appoint before; to preordain; to predestinate; to predetermine.

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