by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible
Undis,
I was re-reading your responses and something stuck out here, its the following:
The word does not dwell in them because they refuse to believe in Jesus.
The Apostle Paul said that "natural men" cannot even understand the Bible.
Undis, Why would you state the above?
Do you see what your saying? On one hand you state they refuse to believe.
On the other hand you admit natural man cannot understand the Word.
Now which is it?
E.
Ellderwho said:
Where is it taught in scripture that I can reject Gods will?
I will post just the Verses with none of my comments added (I will put my points in Bold):
Isaiah 65:2-3: I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isaiah 65:12: Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.
Isaiah 66:3-4: He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.
Proverbs 1:29: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Luke 10:42: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
Hebrews 11:24-26: By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
I will try to post more soon.
Undis,
Did Israel choose God, or did God choose Israel??
| Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; Genesis 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; Genesis 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:4 So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. |
Isaiah 65:2-3: I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isaiah 65:12: Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.
If you would have included verse one of Is. 65 it changes your take on choice.
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, 'Here am I, here am I,'
To a nation which did not call on My name.
Romans 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."
Isaiah 63:17
Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Undis, no doubt Israel has problems. Come to think of it problems like many Christians today including myself.
I think its interesting that Paul quotes Isaiah when relating to our sinful nature. And Paul, and apostle, calls himself the chief of sinners, struggled greatly with the flesh.
Did Paul ask the Lord to reveal himself to him, on the road to Damascus?
Isaiah 66:3-4: This is what we do in our sinful state!
Proverbs 1:29: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Obvisously were dealing with wisdom an attribute God gives us.
Proverbs 1:23
"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
Proverbs 1:24
"Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
Proverbs 2:6
For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Proverbs 2:10
For wisdom will enter your heart And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
I dont see your point from the above quote.Luke 10:42: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
Hebrews 11:24-26: By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
I dont see your point here either.
E.
Ellderwho said:
What would a reasonable time frame be for a person to be enlightened before he would actually decide to fully except the Holy Spirit?
Like all things, it is 100% up to God.
Is this thread a competition of who knows the most scriptures about choice?
Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves today whom you will serve..." Is the issue really about mankind's choosing whom to serve?
Guest 77
pg. 1 Undis ...First of all, God chooses to offer you a FREE GIFT of salvation, then it is up to you to either accept it or reject it. You cannot earn it, you cannot deserve it. You either accept it by repenting and believing OR you reject it.
pg. 1 Undis..The Bible shows that humans can harden their own hearts and because of that, CHOOSE to reject God INSTEAD of humbling themselves:
pg. 2...See the Scriptures I posted above. It is either because God never enlightened them OR it is because they rejected God after being enlightened.
pg. 2...The Bible shows that God chooses whom He wants to enlighten , and then they are given a choice and are given time to choose whether or not to repent.
pg. 7 Undis.. I am absolutely convinced that the God who created our minds would not want anyone to accept anything as truth without making sure of the facts.
pg. 8....Undis
And once that "blind" person's has had his eyes opened by God, where does the Bible say that the person cannot choose to reject or accept Jesus at that point? In fact, the Bible, all the way through, teaches this, from Genesis through Revelation, as I have shown with dozens upon dozens of Verses in this Thread.
pg8. Undis...... Well, my answer is, Lazarus made his choice after he was enlightened, when he chose to repent and believe in Jesus -- right at that moment Lazarus made his choice to be resurrected.
pg 8...Paul had NOT YET repented and called on the Lord Jesus to be Born Again and saved.
pg. 10...Once The Holy Spirit opens a person's eyes, then they can choose to refuse to believe or they can choose to believe, and if they choose to believe, then the word will dwell in them.
Paul had the choice -- he could refuse to repent or he could repent.
pg. 10...I believe that The Trinity must first choose to quicken a person, and then that person has no choice but to be enlightened, but then they must make a decision (as Revelation 2 shows).
pg. 10..However, this man was still given a certain amount of time by God to choose whether or not he would repent and pray to God for forgiveness.
Ellderwho said:
What would a reasonable time frame be, for a person to be enlightened before he would actually decide to fully except the Holy Spirit?
Your response:
Like all things, it is 100% up to God.So, after going through the entire thread and examining your position on "chioce" and how you respond to different types of choices it is clear you are unable to answer my question of ;
What would a reasonable time frame be, for a person to be enlightened before he would actually decide to fully except the Holy Spirit?You've stated over and over that a person has a chance to decide whether he's going to accept the calling of God. Then, finally you contradict yourself and state;
Like all things, it is 100% up to GodNow, throughout this entire thread you've held the position that its NOT up to God, but that he gives us the choice. You gave examples in the above quoted pages, highlighted in red, obvious glaring statements by you that indicate a person has an amount of time or a period of deciding that is entirely up to the individual not GOD! And in the end you say "its 100% up to God" Why do you think I gave this example:
Paul says here in 1Cor.2:14 ...........But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.So what catagory are we in when the so-called "enlightenment" occurs?
So, Once enlightened but not saved, are we still considered to be in the "natural man" catagory, or natural man-state of mind catagory?
I did not contradict myself, however, I should have explained what I meant better.
It is 100% up to God to decide THE TIME FRAME that He allows people to choose, NOT the decision itself. That is what I was trying to say.
You asked me what was a reasonable TIME FRAME, and I said that the TIME FRAME that God allows people is 100% up to Him and Him alone.
I stand by all of my statements that you quoted from my earlier posts.
For tonight, I will be brief:
Let us look once more at the full context of the Revelation verses about this certain woman named "Jezebel":
Revelation 2:18-23: "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Jesus is obviously speaking about a woman who was living right then -- who was alive and was inside that church, whom the church was allowing to remain in good standing, and who was teaching and seducing Christians to sin in that church.
Notice that Jesus said that this woman "calls [not "called"] herself a prophetess" (present-tense), which obviously shows that she was living at the time Jesus spoke those words.
Jesus then says that He gave her TIME to repent, but SHE REFUSED to repent.
Jesus was leading her to repent, but she resisted Him! Just like the Jews resisted The Holy Spirit at Acts 7:51-53, and just like Paul said people resist the leading of The Spirit in Romans Chapter 2:
Acts 7:51-53: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it."
Romans 2: 4-5: Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
About your latest question:
So what catagory are we in when the so-called "enlightenment" occurs?
According to the Scriptures, there are at least four (4) stages ("categories") that people can be in:
(1) Natural Man (born in sin, lost, unsaved, on his way to Hell, cannot even understand the Bible)
(2) Spirit-Enlightened Man (been enlightened by The Holy Spirit, so that he can understand the Bible enough to make his decision to accept or reject Christ)
(3) Born Again Man (accepted Christ's free gift and can never fall away to Hell)
(4) Willful Sinner Against Christ (committed the unforgivable sin by willfully rejecting Christ's free gift after having been enlightened, and is doomed to Hell)
It is 100% up to God to decide THE TIME FRAME that He allows people to choose, NOT the decision itself. That is what I was trying to say. You asked me what was a reasonable TIME FRAME, and I said that the TIME FRAME that God allows people is 100% up to Him and Him alone. I stand by all of my statements that you quoted from my earlier posts.
Undis, from your side of the fence it may appear your not being contradictory. However, the way you present a "time period" to reckon the calling of God is an empty thought, because you never finish the idea or concept. And have yet to back-up this "time period" with scriptural references.
Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Answer this, If God enlightens me today,
1. what part of my natural state can respond ?
2. what does the "enlightenment" do to my natural state?
3. does the "enlightenment" change my natural desires?
4. Does God, beforehand already know my descision?
5. If I do not respond to the enlightening, will I be enlightened again?
6. Because I was enlightened and did not respond, with this information in hand, can I later in life persue a relationship with God.
7. Knowing I was enlightened once in my life, can I make a death-bed confession to God and follow-up the original enlightenment?
8. Because the scripture say my mindset is hostile towards God, does that hostility vanish after the enlightenment?
Let us look once more at the full context of the Revelation verses about this certain woman named "Jezebel":
Revelation 2:18-23: "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Jesus is obviously speaking about a woman who was living right then -- who was alive and was inside that church, whom the church was allowing to remain in good standing, and who was teaching and seducing Christians to sin in that church.
Please comment on these vereses as they pertain to Rev 2:18-23;
2 Kings 9:34
When he came in, he ate and drank; and he said, "See now to this cursed woman and bury her, for she is a king's daughter."
2 Kings 9:35
They went to bury her, but they found nothing more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands.
2 Kings 9:36
Therefore they returned and told him. And he said, "This is the word of the LORD, which He spoke by His servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, 'In the property of Jezreel the dogs shall eat the flesh of Jezebel;
2 Kings 9:37
and the corpse of Jezebel will be as dung on the face of the field in the property of Jezreel, so they cannot say, "This is Jezebel.""'
E.
Ellderwho said:
Answer this, If God enlightens me today,
1. what part of my natural state can respond ?
I believe that it is the darkened and blinded spirit/soul of a person that The Holy Spirit enlightens or awakens -- since this is the only part of man which is everlasting. "The Spirit bears witness to our spirit."
Psalm 51:10: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Ellderwho said:
2. what does the "enlightenment" do to my natural state?
3. does the "enlightenment" change my natural desires?
All I know is what God's Word says about the subject:
The Bible says that The Holy Spirit causes the enlightened person to:
* Become Partakers of The Holy Spirit (Hebrews Chapter 6)
* Receive the Knowledge of the Truth (Hebrews Chapter 10)
* Escape the Pollutions of the World through the Knowledge of Jesus Christ (2nd Peter Chapter 2)
* Know the Way of Righteousness (2nd Peter Chapter 2)
* Taste the Heavenly Free Gift (Hebrews Chapter 6)
* Taste the Good Word of God (Hebrews Chapter 6)
* Taste the Powers of the World to Come (Hebrews Chapter 6)
* Be led to Repentance [which can be rejected] (Romans Chapter 2)
Ellderwho said:
4. Does God, beforehand already know my descision?
Yes. God knows all things -- past, present, future. He is Omniscient.
Ellderwho said:
5. If I do not respond to the enlightening, will I be enlightened again?
Hebrews Chapter 6 says that people are enlightened "once".
Ellderwho said:
6. Because I was enlightened and did not respond, with this information in hand, can I later in life persue a relationship with God.
It is up to God's grace and mercy and love and forgiveness and justice and wisdom.
Only people who are truly, truly repentant and truly humble themselves can have a relationship with God.
Ellderwho said:
7. Knowing I was enlightened once in my life, can I make a death-bed confession to God and follow-up the original enlightenment?
Only if you are truly repentant and humble yourself before God, and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and that He died for you.
If a person has been enlightened, and has willfully rejected Jesus, then he has committed the unforgivable sin -- blasphemy against The Spirit of Grace.
Ellderwho said:
8. Because the scripture say my mindset is hostile towards God, does that hostility vanish after the enlightenment?
I believe that when The Spirit enlightens a person, The Spirit restores that person's ability to humble himself, and restores that person's ability to repent, if he so chooses.
In other words, The Spirit restores what Adam and Eve originally had before they sinned -- the freedom to choose whether or not to obey God.
Just sticking a marker down, so I can find this thread again later.
You guys do realise that we were going at this before I imposed a five week break from the board, on myself, neh?
LOL
