Freedom to Choose God (page 40)

Deputy Dog

LT

Limited Atonement points towards salvation, not damnation. You might argue, through attempted use of logic that damnation is also Predestined, but is that what scripture says?

That is a good question!

Romans 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Is Esau not a " vessel unto dishonour or wrath ?" How about Pharaoh? Will they " reply against God?" Will they say to God (the Potter) "Why hast thou made me thus?"

How about in Acts 4

Act 4:26

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Are Herod and Pontius Pilate vessels unto "honour" or "dishonour"? How about Judas Iscariot?

...so we must leave certain statements unsaid,...

I agree, God tells us what we are not to say:

Romans 9:20

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus?

I think, this is teaching us, that we are not to try to stand in judgement of God.

Romans 9:14

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

I know it's teaching me what not to say !

D Dog

LittleToe

DDog:
I agree, "not judging God" is the main thrust of the teaching, not Double-Predestination

Regarding the examples, would you not also agree that (with the exception of Judas Escariot) we cannot stand in judgement of anyones eternal destiny?

ellderwho

I agree, "not judging God" is the main thrust of the teaching, not Double-Predestination

LT,

Would'nt you agree that the text indicates not to judge Gods decisions? If God chooses to have compassion or wrath.

Romans 9:20

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it

E.

UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe said:

Regarding the examples, would you not also agree that (with the exception of Judas Escariot) we cannot stand in judgement of anyones eternal destiny?

There are a few more exceptions besides Judas, such as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, Pharaoh, Cain, Korah, Balaam, and some of the Pharisees:

Jude 1:7-13 (NKJV): as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Matthew 11:20-24 (NKJV): Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."

But, LittleToe, you are correct that besides these exceptions, we should leave off commenting on whether anyone is in Hell or not.

All will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and/or the Great White Throne of Christ.

Deputy Dog

LT

If God is the Potter, what is the destiny of the " vessel unto honour"? What is the destiny of the vessel unto "dishonour"?

D Dog

Satanus

LT

I just remembered that i'm a pantheist. That means that i fry stuff, instead of boiling it. Gumboil is gonna fry in hell.

S

gumby

Gumboil is gonna fry in hell.

Hey.....your the one with the Satanic name , ya bastard! I'm just a little green innocent man

Gumby

bisous

I did some Tai Chi and Aikido
Washed the car
Did the grocery shopping and put it away
Baked a loaf
Listened to some music
Trimmed the roses and weeded the borders
Did a load of washing, and hung it up to dry
Made lunch
Washed the dishes
Cleared out some kitchen cupboards
Took out the trash
Wrote a poem
And found time to chat to a friend and make some phone calls

LT, got any brothers in the mood for immigration? *picturing the apron-style kilt*

ps-sorry for sullying the holy nature and topic of this thread.

gumby

got any brothers in the mood for immigration?

Yeah.....you dang women like them guys who don't sit around all day on their arse.....and have the time to write a poem, and do the shopping! Why you hedonistic little bastardette....yer lookin for a dude who'll do some of your stuff and do their stuff too .....and......write you a poem! Them guys ain't real....and as a matter of fact, I think LT is tellin a great big ol' fib on this one so's he can snag himself a woman from here just like the bastard Sixer did!

Gumbrains

LittleToe

Gumby:
Darn - busted!!!
Living on my own is a bit of a bummer, on that score. I have to fill both roles, so I write poetry to keep myself sweet
Fortunately the washing and the dishes are just for one

Biscuits:Sorry to disappoint. Both my brothers are married and are JW's. One with a kid and another who is an Elder.

DDog:
Please bear with me a moment. Before I discuss that point (and I will) I'd like to know EW's position on the matter.

EW:
You say that Romans 9 is difficult to argue with. Nonetheless, may I ask again what your stance is?
Do you believe that some are predestined to election and some predestined to probation?
I should add that even the "Westminster Confession of Faith" is silent on determining the matter, in that it is very carefully worded. In Chapter three it declares that the Elect are predestined, but the probate are fore-ordained. The use of two terms is telling, in it's neutrality.

I should add that if you've not come to a conclusion on the matter, that is just as appropriate an answer.

Freedom to Choose God

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