Freedom to Choose God (page 47)

LittleToe

DDog:
Yes.
As Boston puts it, in the "Fourfold State", and I paraphrase (because it's some time since I read it):
Adam, in a "state of innocence", could fall. The Elect, in a "state of grace", cannot.

ellderwho

Biblically speaking God "permitted" it and "the serpent" contributed to the process, but it was man who sinned, and hence was the author of his own downfall (IMHO).

What was the name of that tree in the garden?

Deputy Dog

LT Regarding Reprobation. I do not understand how one can come to any other conclusion. Do we not agree that the ONLY way of escaping our destiny of hell, is by God's grace through His Son? And ONLY the elect receive this grace? If Adam did not seal man's doom, then why did Jesus have to die for the elect? I thought that Adams sin nature was the basis for predetermining all mankind to reprobation. Do you think that this verse only deals with physical death?

1Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I believe that all men (before they are born) are doomed, predestined, foreordained, predetermined, or on there way to hell (because of their sin nature), with no way out. Except, God chose to elect some. This is the first thing a child of God learns about the gospel. If it is not, how do you witness? Why would anyone need Christ? Would you tell them that, "you should stop sinning or you're gonna need Jesus!" or "accept Him now, before you really need Him!" I think the church has been playing bait and switch for much too long.

Sin simply put, means braking God's law.

"What did Jesus mean when he stated 'forgive them Father, for they know not what they do?'".

Jesus stated this because they could not understand the serious nature of what they were doing and to Whom.

It's been another long day! I'll deal with "The Fall" and "God as author of Sin" tomorrow.

D Dog

ellderwho

Sin simply put, means breaking God's law.

Agreed, and what was the first Law. And was it able to be kept?

LT, was Adam created perfect?

E.

LittleToe

EW:Are you insinuating that the tree was the author?

Further, define "perfect".

DDog:
I'm going to tidy up a few things along the way in my response. I hope you don't mind me being a little pedantic in the process.

All makind receive "common grace". I agree that it is only the Elect that receive "saving grace".
Adam bought death for all mankind, leading to Jesus death for the elect, I agree.

Do you think that this verse only deals with physical death?

Actually, since you ask, I think quite the reverse. I think the whole story of Adam and Eve pertains to spiritual disconnection, and not physical death (whether or not one leads to another is another story entirely, and not part of this discussion, but 1Cor.15 would be a valid starting point).

I believe that all men (before they are born) are doomed, predestined, foreordained, predetermined, or on there way to hell (because of their sin nature), with no way out.

That would be the general scriptural viewpoint, in that all makind are by nature vessels of wrath, yes. I don't think it's correct to throw "predestined" into that pot of adjectives, though, as scripture doesn't. You surely know by know that this has consistently been my only sticking point?

Adam bought all into death, Jesus bought some out of it (the others are "passed over").
The benefits of that "call", however, are not seen until the soul is regenerated.

Sin simply put, means braking God's law.

Now see, there is another point on which we would need to be more specific
How do you understand Gal.3:19, in that context?

ellderwho

EW:Are you insinuating that the tree was the author?
Further, define "perfect".

No. I believe we should examine the tree, and who might have designed it to hold good and evil that obiviously was present prior to the fall.

Along with the thought, God already knew Adam would eat. Thus created with sin. (before the founding of the world)

myelaine

So you deserve eternal life because you are more humble?

D Dog,

I have been reading this post and have not the time right now to read it all but, I did notice this question of yours and don't know if anyone else answered it for you.

I would say part of humbleing yourself before God would be the understanding and acceptance that we don't deserve any of the blessings (including everlasting life) that God has given us.

love michelle

Deputy Dog

myelaine

Thanks, I agree, but did that knowledge come from you or from God? Did God humble you, or did you humble yourself.

D Dog

myelaine

My life broke me, nothing seemed to go the way that I figured it should go. I was after all a "good person". One day I just talked to God and told him that I was lost and I couldn't do anything right, I begged him to forgive me for my sin of not allowing him to lead me. I asked him to give me the strength to continue my life walking in his ways and not my own.

I guess the first thing that happened was God showed me that my life amounted to nothing dispite my trying for years to make myself happy. So He humbled me first.

michelle

Deputy Dog

LT

Actually, since you ask, I think quite the reverse. I think the whole story of Adam and Eve pertains to spiritual disconnection, and not physical death (whether or not one leads to another is another story entirely, and not part of this discussion, but 1Cor.15 would be a valid starting point).

I think we agree on more than you want to admit.

That would be the general scriptural viewpoint, in that all makind are by nature vessels of wrath, yes. I don't think it's correct to throw "predestined" into that pot of adjectives, though, as scripture doesn't. You surely know by know that this has consistently been my only sticking point?

I think we need to back up for a moment, did we not agree that predestined and foreordained mean the same thing. Did not " The Westminster Confession of Faith" use these two words to... well lets say to "keep the peace". Maybe they are the ones you should make your plea:

The answer could easily be that, as God predestinated it all (if you blur the definitions between predestination and foreordination)

Help me out here I'm confused! Who is bluring the definitions?

Now see, there is another point on which we would need to be more specific
How do you understand Gal.3:19, in that context?

Here again, I need some help, sin means sin in most any biblical context. If you are asking about the law, that was given to prove our nature is to sin and show our need for a Savior who gives us a new nature. D Dog

Freedom to Choose God

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