Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

Deputy Dog

LT I'm not sure that we are all working with the same definition for "foreordained". I think or I thought, that the "Westminister Catechism" used the word the way Paul did in Romans 8:29 where it seems that you can't have one without the other.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"
The problem is, how does he know or determine? I say, He knows by decree. You seem to say, He knows by learning in advance.
I don't believe there are any surprises that God has to react to, because He worked it all out in "the plan",
"worked it all out" Actively by decree?
Would it please you more if I stated that God has foreordained the eternal destiny of each individual?
It's not my pleasure that is important, it is God's
How do you reconcile 1John1:5 with your position on sin?
Just because He created darkness doesn't mean that any is found in the Creator. Remember my example of Government. Are our law makers (government) guilty of the laws they make, simply for defining the laws (sin) or for putting them into place?
Is the lump (of Rom.9:21) neutral or tainted with sin?
I asked you first.
It says that the two came from the same "lump" (of Holy clay?)
It is a good question. Could it be Holy? D Dog
LittleToe

DDog:
I'm not sure that we are all working with the same definition for "foreordained"

That is likely part (if not most) of our problem here
I think or I thought, that the "Westminister Catechism" used the word the way Paul did in Romans 8:29 where it seems that you can't have one without the other.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"
You can't have predestination without Foreordination, but you can have foreordination without predestination. Ergo my argument regarding the reprobate, and the whole digression into Greek.
An example, with some scriptural basis . The sea has it's bounds set (I have no scriptural backing for the use of the term, but predestined might be applicable here as an analogy - it still doesn't fit the "Elect" theme for the use of the word, though). The wind does not. Yet both are foreordained.
The problem is, how does he know or determine? I say, He knows by decree. You seem to say, He knows by learning in advance.
When did I ever say that?
I told you already, I don't hold to Arminian doctrine.
I agree - it's by decree.
"worked it all out" Actively by decree?
Actively, before creation actually began.
It's not my pleasure that is important, it is God's.
You don't think I know that?
I'm talking about your intellectual satisfication with my position.
IMHO God is laughing His socks off, at our vain attempts to understand Him.
Just because He created darkness doesn't mean that any is found in the Creator.
Where does scripture say he created darkness?
Remember my example of Government. Are our law makers (government) guilty of the laws they make, simply for defining the laws (sin) or for putting them into place?
They are responsible for making them, and for their consequences.
When they subordinate such duties to States, Counties, and Police forces, that responsibility is also devolved.
We are responsible for keeping them, and bear the consequences for not doing so.
There is a distinct parallel with God's laws, IMHO.
Is the lump (of Rom.9:21) neutral or tainted with sin?
I thought I had already clarified that I think it's the whole lump of "totally depraved" humanity, a few pages back. All the examples Paul uses are so. He doesn't allude to Adam, in this context, even once.
It says that the two came from the same "lump" (of Holy clay?) It is a good question. Could it be Holy?
God makes something unholy out of that which is unholy?
I'm sorry, but I'm disagreeable to that concept, and I dont think you have scriptural warrant for it.
You might prove me wrong
ellderwho

LT, goodmorning,
Where does scripture say he created darkness?
Psalms 104:20
You appoint darkness and it becomes night,
In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.
Psalms 105:28
He sent darkness and made it dark;
And they did not rebel against His words.
Psalms 139:12
Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
Isaiah 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these
Jeremiah 13:16
Give glory to the LORD your God,
Before He brings darkness
And before your feet stumble
On the dusky mountains,
And while you are hoping for light
He makes it into deep darkness,
And turns it into gloom.
On the subject of the tree of good and evil;
LT: That still doesn't make him the author or creator of sin. That is the responsiblity (with it's repercussions) of the creature alone.
Could not Adam say to God "why did you put a tree in the garden that stumbled me'?
Im sure Adam and Eve had discussions like, if it wasnt for that tree, or why would the LORD allow that snake to talk to us?
E.
LittleToe

EW:
Adam could say any of that, but it would not negate his own responsibility in the matter.
In fact the account tells us that he started on exactly that track by blaming "that woman".
Regardless of any conversations that "totally depraved" man might have (and Adam was in that state at this point) it doesn't make it so.
I've had a look at that list of scriptures that you cited and only one of them has any bearing on this conversation, as the others are talking about daytime and nighttime, etc., having nothing to do with creation at all.
IMHO the only verse which bears further consideration is Isa.45:7.
I'm chuckling away to myself, here, because you've got me with that one.
I need to have a good look at it, and get back to you
It reads this way in the KJV:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The word "create" and "darkness" are the same used in the Genesis account. I need to look closely at that, and the use of the word "evil".
ellderwho

I think your missing the point.
Adam could say any of that, but it would not negate his own responsibility in the matter.
Why would God have the tree in the garden to begin with? If Gods knows the outcome.
Why introduce a "sin catalyst" ?
The associated verses are only to show that God wields/commands the darkness that he created.
KJV; Psalms 104:20
Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep [forth].
E.
LittleToe

EW:
The associated verses are only any good if you can substantiate that He created dark in the first place, hence my comment on Isaiah. That's the only verse that actually uses the word "create" (the Hebrew for "make" does not have the same connotations).
Why do you call the tree a "sin catalyst"?
Surely Adam could have just as easily broken God's law by not tending for the garden, or by not having children?
Where there is law there is responsibility to uphold it.
That was the only law where there was an explicit death-sentence associated with it.
The choice (authorship / creatorship) of breaking that law was Adam's, with God only producing a working title.
To not have had that choice would have meant that everything is entirely clockwork, and that any glory He received from his "creation" would surely be entirely mechanical and self-obtained?
It seems to me that as soon as you allow choice, you allow a statistical probability that all options will be explored. Maybe, from that perspective, sin was inevitable and the route that ensued was deemed the best fit.
Speculation, speculation, speculation.
outbutnotdown

Hell of a scripture, that Isaiah 45:7. I don't remember ever reading it as a JW, to be honest, or I think I would have left earlier, me hopes....
Not to try to pick on you twice in one night, LT, but isn't it circular reasoning to say that God created good and evil or peace and evil, but that the same humans that he created are solely responsible for that same evil that he created?
IMHO, it seems like an impossibility that a CREATOR would not be wise enough to NEVER CREATE EVIL in the first place.... which in turns makes a Christian God either a hypocrite or just stupid enough to not possibly be brilliant enough to create anything.
WE are responsible for it all....... not God.... us humans..... IMHO again, we should stop blaming him and we should stop giving him all the credit..... we can't do it both ways.......
I know my personal life got better when I gave up on a Christian God.
Brad
LittleToe

Brad:
Are you stalking me?
Hell of a scripture, that Isaiah 45:7. I don't remember ever reading it as a JW, to be honest, or I think I would have left earlier, me hopes....
I think I've either missed it, or read it in a different context/translation.
Not to try to pick on you twice in one night, LT, but isn't it circular reasoning to say that God created good and evil or peace and evil, but that the same humans that he created are solely responsible for that same evil that he created?
I don't know about whether or not it's circular reasoning, but it's certainly a strange form of justice, IMHO.
I appreciate that the posts have been a bit deep, but you'll find that I'm arguing againt the idea that God created both.
That's why I'm particularly bummed that EW found Isa.45
IMHO, it seems like an impossibility that a CREATOR would not be wise enough to NEVER CREATE EVIL in the first place.... which in turns makes a Christian God either a hypocrite or just stupid enough to not possibly be brilliant enough to create anything.
Ah, be careful with that black and white thinking, my dear friend. Are those the only two options?
I'm just beginning my argument for it's inevitable occurance. The question is, how do you plan for that, before you start the process of actually creating?
WE are responsible for it all....... not God.... us humans..... IMHO again, we should stop blaming him and we should stop giving him all the credit..... we can't do it both ways.......
I understand your position.
Nonetheless, doesn't He at least deserve a little praise for starting the ball rolling (speaking hypothetically here)?
I know my personal life got better when I gave up on a Christian God.
I'm pleased to hear your life is improving.
If it's not too personal, may I ask if you mean JW-god, or Christ?
Personally I never viewed Christ as "God" when I was growing up as a JW.
outbutnotdown

LT,
No, it's not too personal, so here goes..... I meant Christian as in the whole kit and kabootle (sp?..lol). While I do rank the JW's as more extreme Christians and, by their actions, more negative an influence on humankind than most of the rest of Christianity (Mormons and some others are way up there too), the whole philosophy of Christ, God, the Holy spirit, IMO is still more spiritually limiting that some other more open-minded faiths, like Taoism and Bhuddism.
But, trust me, I'm under no illusion that any one religion is without fault. However, I do try to form an opinion based on a weighing of how much good they have accomplished in history and how much that is offset by the negative impacts that they have had on society as well.
If somebody wanted to put a label on me, I would have to say that I am agnostic. I'm quite happy admitting that I don't know enough to form a definite opinion on any of it....... too many possibilities that can potentially be at least partly true.
Geez, I'm glad I'm not at the kingdom hall anymore, 'cause I'd be condemned as the biggest fence -sitter in history.....
Brad
Deputy Dog

LT Sorry for the delay in responding. I have this thing called a job that keeps getting in the way. As I was reading your posts and came to this statement: IMHO God is laughing His socks off, at our vain attempts to understand Him. You hit the nail on the head, some how I have problems finding the right words. We do agree on most if not all of the important points. I will admit that the word "cause" for God's role in mans sin, may not be totally accurate, but, I don't think "allow" fits either. Telling me, that God is not in total control of the sin that comes my way, is not very comforting, and I don't think either one of us believes that. As I have grown in my faith I have found it very comforting to know that God is totally sovereign, in the good and the bad.
The problem is, how does he know or determine? I say, He knows by decree. You seem to say, He knows by learning in advance.

When did I ever say that?
I told you already, I don't hold to Arminian doctrine.
I agree - it's by decree.
Sorry, for the misunderstanding.
I thought I had already clarified that I think it's the whole lump of "totally depraved" humanity, a few pages back. All the examples Paul uses are so. He doesn't allude to Adam, in this context, even once.
My point was, how is God (The Potter) able to make unholy vessels, if he can't be responsible for the sin that they commit (how does an all Holy God make something unholy)? He does make them, and He cursed them to inherit the sin nature. So He has to be responsible at some level. D Dog

Freedom to Choose God

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