Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

ellderwho

It was specifically Adam who became the author of sin, IMHO.
What kind of sin do you mean? Sin as it applies to man?
LittleToe

EW:
What kind of sin do you mean? Sin as it applies to man?

Aye.
At that point man became totally depraved, and found himself unable to keep the least of the commandments without sin.
Fortunately "grace" was in the wings, ready to step in.
Deputy Dog

LT
Don't you see the distinction between a parent instructing their child to do something, and a Master instructing their slave? I'm amazed, for even Paul made such a distinction!
The only people that are Gods children are those with faith in Christ, by adoption.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children , then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure God was a Good Master, and I'm sure it was not like a human master slave relationship.
How are you defining "righteousness"?

From G1342; equity (of character or act); specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness.
They were? Where did they find the time-machine, to project them 3000 years into the future?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
D Dog
LittleToe
DDog:
- Luk 3:38 son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
- Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
- Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
- Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
- Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
- Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
In what sense was Adam "the son of God", here? By virtue of creation or adoption?
The second verse, from Genesis, is under dispute.
The middle two are surely relating to heavenly "sons of God"?
The next texts, from John, is evidently about adoption.
Finally the last text is almost certainly about adoption, but could be read another way, by some.
My simple point is that the term "son of God", or Bene-Elohim, is surely not just restricted to the Adoption.
LT asked: How are you defining "righteousness"?
DD replied: From G1342; equity (of character or act); specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness.
That's not a very full expression:
Strongs:
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).
Vine:
Righteousness
<1,,1343,dikaiosune> is "the character or quality of being right or just;" it was formerly spelled "rightwiseness," which clearly expresses the meaning. It is used to denote an attribute of God, e.g., Rom_3:5, the context of which shows that "the righteousness of God" means essentially the same as His faithfulness, or truthfulness, that which is consistent with His own nature and promises; Rom_3:25-26 speaks of His "righteousness" as exhibited in the Death of Christ, which is sufficient to show men that God is neither indifferent to sin nor regards it lightly. On the contrary, it demonstrates that quality of holiness in Him which must find expression in His condemnation of sin.
"Dikaiosune is found in the sayings of the Lord Jesus, (a) of whatever is right or just in itself, whatever conforms to the revealed will of God, Mat_5:6, Mat_5:10, Mat_5:20; Joh_16:8, Joh_16:10; (b) whatever has been appointed by God to be acknowledged and obeyed by man. Mat_3:15; Mat_21:32; (c) the sum total of the requirements of God, Mat_6:33; (d) religious duties, Mat_6:1 (distinguished as almsgiving, man's duty to his neighbor, Mat_6:2-4, prayer, his duty to God, Mat_6:5-15, fasting, the duty of self-control, Mat_6:16-18).
"In the preaching of the Apostles recorded in Acts the word has the same general meaning. So also in Jam_1:20; Jam_3:18, in both Epp. of Peter, 1st John and the Revelation. In 2Pe_1:1, 'the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ,' is the righteous dealing of God with sin and with sinners on the ground of the Death of Christ. 'Word of righteousness,' Heb_5:13, is probably the gospel, and the Scriptures as containing the gospel, wherein is declared the righteousness of God in all its aspects.
"This meaning of dikaiosune, right action, is frequent also in Paul's writings, as in all five of its occurrences in Rom. 6; Eph_6:14, etc. But for the most part he uses it of that gracious gift of God to men whereby all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are brought into right relationship with God. This righteousness is unattainable by obedience to any law, or by any merit of man's own, or any other condition than that of faith in Christ ... The man who trusts in Christ becomes 'the righteousness of God in Him,' 2Co_5:21, i.e., becomes in Christ all that God requires a man to be, all that he could never be in himself. Because Abraham accepted the Word of God, making it his own by that act of the mind and spirit which is called faith, and, as the sequel showed, submitting himself to its control, therefore God accepted him as one who fulfilled the whole of His requirements, Rom_4:3. ...
"Righteousness is not said to be imputed to the believer save in the sense that faith is imputed ("reckoned' is the better word) for righteousness. It is clear that in Rom_4:6, Rom_4:11, 'righteousness reckoned' must be understood in the light of the context, 'faith reckoned for righteousness,' Rom_4:3, Rom_4:5, Rom_4:9, Rom_4:22. 'For' in these places is eis, which does not mean 'instead of,' but 'with a view to.' The faith thus exercised brings the soul into vital union with God in Christ, and inevitably produces righteousness of life, that is, conformity to the will of God." * [* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 246, 247.]
<2,,1345,dikaioma>
is the concrete expression of "righteousness:" see JUSTIFICATION, A, No. 2.
Note: In Heb_1:8, AV, euthutes, "straightness, uprightness" (akin to euthus "straight, right"), is translated "righteousness" (RV, "uprightness;" AV, marg., "rightness, or straightness").
Further, we're only here considering the Greek.. What also of the Hebrew?
Strongs:H6666
צדקה
tsedâqâh
tsed-aw-kaw'
From H6663; rightness (abstractly), subjectively (rectitude), objectively (justice), morally (virtue) or figuratively (prosperity): - justice, moderately, right (-eous) (act, -ly, -ness).
My whole point here is that surely Adam was righteous, before he fell?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
That would be the appropriate text, in response to my question, however it brings forth more questions.
I've taken the passage you used and highlighted two other portions.
The first demonstrates the mechanics of the entrance of sin into the world, and lays no responsibility at God's feet.
The second brings me to a point regarding Adam's offspring. In what sense had they sinned?
Since they were now totally depraved, it seems fairly clear that this would be in thought, word and deed, and the examples in Genesis attest to this (though Enoch is an interesting case study). Nonetheless this sin was surely not imputed to them, or was it (since we have various errors recorded for posterity)?
The text seems to indicate that the sin, that entered the world by Adam, was present with them.
But here is my point about the timemachine: By what "law" were they dying, given that we would later find that sons were not to bear reproach for their fathers (Eze.18:20-22)?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure God was a Good Master, and I'm sure it was not like a human master slave relationship.
Who are the slaves of God?
From the way you seem to be approaching the text; people are either sons of God by adoption or surely slaves to sin? Are there any outwith these two categories, that might receive a beneficient servanthood?
Deputy Dog

LT I think your missing my point and that is, that the relationship was not a parental one. That kind of close relationship (Abba, father) was introduced by Jesus. I'm sure God was a loving Master. But, a Master none the less, He wanted Worship and Praise I'm sure, and disobedience was punished death.
My whole point here is that surely Adam was righteous, before he fell?
How could he have righteousness of his own? He didn't even know was it was, until after he ate the fruit.
The second brings me to a point regarding Adam's offspring. In what sense had they sinned?
Since they were now totally depraved, it seems fairly clear that this would be in thought, word and deed, and the examples in Genesis attest to this
Agreed.
Nonetheless this sin was surely not imputed to them, or was it (since we have various errors recorded for posterity)?
Why not?
The text seems to indicate that the sin, that entered the world by Adam, was present with them.
But here is my point about the timemachine: By what "law" were they dying, given that we would later find that sons were not to bear reproach for their fathers (Eze.18:20-22)?
They sinned against the moral law, that is written on all our hearts as a result of the fall, now knowing good and evil.
Are there any outwith these two categories, that might receive a beneficient servanthood?
You lost me friend??? D Dog
LittleToe

So what happened to UnDisFellowshipped and EllderWho??
DDog:Can I ask you, what relationship is not a parental one?
Surely there are none who are of the Elect who are not children of God, regardless of the timeframe in which they lived?
Further, regardless of whether such ones declared themselves to be "servants of the Lord", does this negate the familial relationship?
Regarding Adam, before the fall, is not righteousness a state of being?
What in him was unrighteous? At the end of the sixth day wasn't everything that had been created declared "good"?
Why did the offspring of Adam not have their sins imputed to them, prior to the law? Because there was no law to condemn them of such. Since even their conscience was "depraved", how could they be condemned other than through inherited "sin"?
I understand that you are refering to Rom.2:15, but if this were to be the case since Adam, why would Paul feel the further need to elaborate in Rom.5:12-14?
LT Wrote: Are there any outwith these two categories, that might receive a beneficient servanthood?
My point here was merely that there are surely only two categories:
You are in the family of God (and hence a child, not a servant) or are not.
Are you saying that there's a third category, or that somehow the reprobate receive a beneficiant servanthood?
ozziepost

LT:
Good to see you made it home safely!
Ozzie
LittleToe

Thanks Ozzie.
It was good to be back in my own bed, after about a week away.
Regards to MrsOzzie
ellderwho

So what happened to UnDisFellowshipped and EllderWho??

I was wondering the same of you. Undis was gone pages ago.
E.
Deputy Dog

LT Glad your back! It was getting lonely on this thread.
Surely there are none who are of the Elect who are not children of God, regardless of the time frame in which they lived?
I agree, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, until Jesus, people did not have that type of relationship (abba father or heavenly father), this side of glory. Do you know of any Old Testament verses that teach this concept? The Pharisees condemned Jesus for teaching this didn't they.
Regarding Adam, before the fall, is not righteousness a state of being?
What in him was unrighteous?
I would say that Adam was innocent. Does not righteousness come from making right decisions? Wouldn't that require him to know right from wrong.
At the end of the sixth day wasn't everything that had been created declared "good"?
Yea, but, does "good" have to mean "perfect", at least morally? I'm not so sure that it does. Wouldn't innocent be characterized as "good"?
Since even their conscience was "depraved",
What is a "depraved" conscience? Do you mean a hardened heart? Are you saying, Cain didn't know he sinned, when he killed Abel! D Dog

Freedom to Choose God

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