Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Deputy Dog

  LT

  I think this fits this thread. EW and I thought this was a good story.

  Told by: Benjamin B. Warfield

  There is a story of a little Dutch boy, which embodies very fairly the difference between God and Fate. This little boy's home was on a dyke in Holland, near a great wind-mill, whose long arms swept so close to the ground as to endanger those who carelessly strayed under them. But he was very fond of playing precisely under this mill. His anxious parents had forbidden him to go near it; and, when his stubborn will did not give way, had sought to frighten him away from it by arousing his imagination to the terror of being struck by the arms and carried up into the air to have life beaten out of him by their ceaseless strokes. One day, heedless of their warning, he strayed again under the dangerous arms, and was soon absorbed in his play there forgetful of everything but his present pleasures. Perhaps, he was half conscious of a breeze springing up; and somewhere in the depth of his soul, he may have been obscurely aware of the danger with which he had been threatened. At any rate, suddenly, as he played, he was violently smitten from behind, and found himself swung all at once, with his head downward, up into the air; and then the blows came, swift and hard! 0 what a sinking of the heart! 0 what a horror of great darkness! It had come then! And he was gone! In his terrified writhing, he twisted himself about, and looking up, saw not the immeasureable expanse of the brazen heavens above him, but his father's face. At once, he realized, with a great revulsion, that he was not caught in the mill, but was only receiving the threatened punishment of his disobedience. He melted into tears, not of pain, but of relief and joy. In that moment, he understood the difference between falling into the grinding power of a machine and into the loving hands of a father.

  That is the difference between Fate and Predestination. And all the language of men cannot tell the immensity of the difference.

  from Selected Shorter Writings of Benjamin B. Warfield, vol. 1, Edited by John E. Meeter, published by Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1970. originally from The Presbyterian, Mar. 16, 1904, pp. 7-8..
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  ellderwho

  I find no scripture that supports your assertion that God predestinated the reprobate.

  Romans 9:17
  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
  

  OK, when shown this scripture before you said " it means to glorify Gods name"

  Then I pressed you futher, and you reply:

  It seems to me you cannot except that Pharoah was "predestined" foreordained, whatever, to do a specific thing for God.

  Oh, I can do that alright (predestinate and/or foreordain), as per my comments on Acts, to DDog.
  My ONLY issue is concerning God's predestining people to reprobation.

  Am I missing something here? Pharoah was in everyway a reprobate was he not? Are you afraid to entertain the thought that God designed this Pharoah for this very purpose?

  How much more reprobate can one be, by Pharoahs actions? Or Judas, Esau?

  Romans 9:18
  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

  At what point in creation will you explain to me, does God do the hardening of the reprobate as you would have it.

  Maybe I've picked you up wrong, but that appears to be the God that you are describing to me as your own.
  I'm afraid that the "mercy" that is evidenced by such a God appears only to be skin deep, since it would seem there's an ulterior motive that has little to do with compassion at all.

  Perhaps, Then I give you:

  Romans 9:19
  You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
  20
  On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

  What are the principalities and powers spoken of in Colossians? They cannot just be the good attributes that come to mind first while reading the passage.

  You're wandering into other scriptures, now, but I agree with you in principle.

  Well then, what are the principalities? And why would you agree in principle? (the wandering is trying to show a point)

  What does "everything made that was made" include in John chapter one. Again this cannot just be the nice little things in life.

  I agree. Once more, though, you attempt to put words in my mouth. I'd rather you didn't do that, thanks. But once more I also state that you need to be careful where you lay the blame for certain actions.

  Sorry you feel that way.

  IMHO This has nothing to do with attempting to insert words, by conclusion you end up facing a dilema, did God create the bad things too? And how far reaching is this? And your reply will be ??

  E.
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  Deputy Dog

  LT

  I would like to examine your understanding of "foreordination". Does God's foreordination determine what He decrees or does God's decree determine what He foreordains

  D Dog
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  LittleToe

  DDog:
  Interesting story. It seems more appropriate to the "chastisement and discipline of Elect sons", than to salvation and reprobation, though (Heb.12:6)

  To answer your question about decrees, etc., IMHO:

  • By His decree, God foreordains all that comes to pass.
  • Within that foreordination are a multiplicity of decrees.
  • They are, therefore, distinct yet inseperable with His "will".
  • Several of these surround the issue of predestinating the Elect.
  • They are all set in eternity anyhow, not time, though many are enacted in the latter. Hence I question whether the linear perspective is truly appropriate (which could also be applied to aspects of the Lapsarian controversy).

  I repeat this section of my previous post, for you:

  I would personally further take it to the Greek, because two words are used, not one:

  • Predestinate is pro-horizo - a marking out of certain bounds.
  • Foreordained is pro-ginosko - a foreknowledge.

  It was foreknown (in the eternal plan, before the founding of the world) that all would be vessels of wrath.
  It was predestined that there would be a prescribed number saved.

  Hence He didn't just "foreknow" who would respond to the gospel and become the Elect, as the Arminian's would have it, but He chose them from all eternity. Both elect and reprobate are "foreordained", though.

  I also thank you for raising the issue, though, because it's given me cause to re-examine some of my own postition.
  I originally stated:

  My own position, which leans towards the Infra postion would be that God's purpose was to:

  Create man
  Permit the fall
  Elect some to salvation (the others are "passed over", because truly none are worthy of election)
  Provide the means of that salvation
  Call the elect to that salvation.

  He would then start the creative process with "Let there be light".
  I'm still pondering the order of points three and four, as I consider that the provision may have needed to precede the Election (using that provision), if we're truly going to be tidy about it.

  In connection with the last paragraph I would now have to say that I agree with the Infra order, without qualification; since it follows that once decreeing that He would Elect, He would then decree that He would provide the means to do so.
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  LittleToe

  EW:
  I should also highlight, before I go any further, that I find great difficulty basing a whole doctrine (with such wide-ranging implications) upon a single text. You expressed concern about "wordplay" in a previous post but, alas, that is all you really have to go on with this one. Hence we are permitted a difference of opinion. I emphasise, again, that the following is merely my position on what I understand scripture to be saying, regardless of how "certain" my comments may appear to be:

  Whether or not Pharoah, Esau, etc., are ultimately of the reprobate is neither here nor there to me. I reiterate again that my only contention is that scripture doesn't state that they were predestinated such. As a group that term is only applied to the Elect.
  On a Venn diagram, the circled area would represent those predestined to election. There isn't another circle to be seen on the diagram. Everyone else falls outside of the circle. I refer you back to the greek, above.

  Romans 9:18
  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

  At what point in creation will you explain to me, does God do the hardening of the reprobate as you would have it.

  Do we not occasionally harden our hearts, as permitted by God?
  That experience is not limited to the reprobate, as evidenced by some grieving the Holy Spirit.
  God foreordains all that comes to pass (including the sins of the Elect) but that doesn't make Him the author of sin nor does it mean that He predestineated everything. Predestination applies to certain specific bounds, which He set.
  Whilst Paul has highlighted a specific example of God hardening someone, does He need to take such [active] action for someone to fall outside of the Elect? I think not.

  He foreordained it before the founding of the world (creation, including time, IMHO). He enacted it as time came upon the occasion to do so.

  Well then, what are the principalities? And why would you agree in principle? (the wandering is trying to show a point)

  The scripture you're highlighting is Col 1:16: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" KJV (sidebar, This is Jesus being spoken of as the creator. - Read it and weep WTS)

  I'm sorry, but I don't think this scripture has a direct bearing on the point of "sin" at all. Sure, He created all things, including power structures, devolving authority to governments and rulers, etc., but it is the creatures themselves that have abused such authority, not Him.

  I should have been a little clearer that my thoughts were linked to the paragraph above it, in what I was agreeing to, in principle (I've reposted it below, to save you flipping pages, if you want to further discuss it). I don't take a "namby pamby, God wouldn't hurt a fly" view of scripture. Sorry about that:

  It matters not what our preceptions are of wether something is fair or not. In this world that is full of suffering. Everything has to be by Gods design.

  Agreed, but we need to be careful what we mean by "design", here. Some things in the design are permitted. The end justifies the means, but at no point can we level injustice at God. That isn't just because we're not allowed to, it's because it would be incorrect.

  What are the principalities and powers spoken of in Colossians? They cannot just be the good attributes that come to mind first while reading the passage.

  You're wandering into other scriptures, now, but I agree with you in principle.

  I would rather edit your first statement to "...whether something seems fair or not...", though.

  by conclusion you end up facing a dilema, did God create the bad things too? And how far reaching is this? And your reply will be ??

  No dilemma at all. At the end of the sixth day, what did God say (Gen.1:31)?
  "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." KJVIMHO "sin" entered into creation after this point.

  Turretin makes the following remark regarding sin (VI. vii. i, though I can't find it online.): "Two extremes are to be avoided. First, that of defect, when an otiose permission of sin is ascribed to God. Second, that of excess, when the causality of sin is ascribed to him. Between these extremes, the orthodox hold the mean, who contend that the providence of God extends to sin in such way that He does not involuntarily permit it, as the Pelagians say, nor actively cause it as the Libertines assert, but voluntarily ordains and controls it".

  .

  No hurry on the Rom.1:28 and Gal.2:17 things, and the following questions:

• Did God create satan?
• Did He create Him as "the father of the lie"?
• Did He design Him to be wicked and cause hurt?
• Did God create Adam in such a manner as He intentionally set him up to fall?
• Did God design the world in such a way as to make our sins inevitable?
• Is the only purpose of all of this just to show that God is a big guy who can do what He wants, how He wants, and regardless of the pain and suffering it causes His creatures in the process (potentially with the aim of some of them glorifying Him and some of them burning for eternity)?

In turn, I also ask you a question: How do you define the word "mercy"?