EW:
Afternoon
You'll have to agree when God created the earth the "tree" in the garden was part of Gods creation, it was not there by accident.
I don't have to, but I do agree that that's the way the story goes
Being that God created the tree with all its implications, one has to conclude it was the catylst by which man fell.
That would be an assumption, but it's one we agree on.
God creates man, why create him if God knows he will fall.
The bible is silent on that matter. We have details on his dealing with some (e.g. Pharoah), but that doesn't touch on man in a state of "innocence", in the garden.
Why create him with the ability to fall?
The bible is silent on that matter.
Where did the evil in Satan come from?
The bible doesn't describe it that way.
If you say Satan then you've brought Satan up to a formidable force to be reckons with. Actually Satan has become stronger then God if that where the case.
I disagree with your logic, even if I were to accept the assumptions on which it is founded.
Satan is "father of the lie" true, but who created Satan?
Do you mean the creature later named "Satan", or the change that wrought the name?
The creature was created by God. The evil came about by the creature's own devices, as "permitted" by God.
Coming back to the discussion of those who are now of the "lump in the fallen state, in contrast to those beings that had a "perfect" start; It's one thing to say that creatures are denied mercy (which is entirely the right of the One in the judgement seat), and hence are made vessels of dishonour, but it's entirely another to state that God specifically created them to be evil.
This is where "everything that was made" comes in. All powers and principalities has to be inclusive of every force known to us, if not we create a much bigger problem. That is Satan can continue to thwart Gods plans, and so on....
You'll excuse me, I hope, if I express my humble opinion that you are taking a very narrow view if you think the theological construct you present is the only way to surmount that problem.
What is evil and why would God create it?
The only text that specifically states that God created "evil" is in Isa.45:7.
You're like a dog with a bone - LOL.
You already know that I don't believe God created the "evil" that you are refering to
How do define grace?
DDog:
LT wrote: Didn't Christ's "passive obediance" show that it is impossible?
I assume it was this statement that caused confusion. Sorry about that.
Was it possible for Christ to sin? I know the JW answer to this, but I think it's wrong. If Christ is "God the Son" how is it possible for Him to break God's commands? I honestly don't think it is.
Christ wasn't being tested as to perfection, he came to enact atonement and play His part in establishing a covenant that had been wrought in eternity.
The reason I have a problem with that is because, for me the word "permit" suggests that God has to little control. You have a problem with the word "cause" because it gives Him responsibility.
Now I believe we're getting to the core of it
It's ultimately a semantics problem, methinks.
When I say that God permits something I don't mean that He has no control. There's no stage of the game where He can't do something, yet he allows events to occur (is "allow" a better word??), with His hand hovering over them.
My difficulty with the word "cause", in this context is that it takes the issue right down to the direct responsibility level, which I'm not happy with. At one level you can say that He's ultimately responsible for everything (I don't have a problem with that), but that isn't the level of my contention. I hope that's a little clearer.
How would you feel about this? In any sinful action, there is action that is totally caused by God, (like Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery) and there is evil or sinful intent that is supplied by man. Could you agree with that statement? This would make sense out of the verse
I'm not entirely happy with it, but we're getting close to resolving our differences, I hope
I don't see the action as being "totally caused" by God, where there is evil directly involved (I hope you'll bear with me here, because I want to be a bit careful about the word "cause" here, as it has it's own theological considerations). Where there are evil events, they are usually preceded by a creature's evil intent, which as you rightly state is supplied by the creature in question.
In some specific events, such as the one you're considering about Joseph, I agree that God actively directs events that seem evil, but "work unto good". I have a real issue about this being the case in the Adamic story, though.
I hope this is giving you a bit of an insight into how my mind works on these texts, and the general context they play into.
