Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

ellderwho

That doesn't answer the following question:
Do you believe Adam was created unrighteous?

I state "I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with." What does that leave, as my response?
Look at it this way, God looks down upon earth and sees no one that is "righteous" does not that leave Adam out?
Because its "cut and dry" that no one is righteous. And it is "across the board" that no one is righteous. in this tone the said "righteousness" has to be that no one has this attribute in an of themselves.
This is where I feel that the righteousness that some are said to have in the scriptures is not self manifested. Therefore has to be credited to God.
You continue to want Adam to have a bit of righteousness, but are unable to point at where he would have obtained it from.
Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.
My only deduction would be that if Adam possesed "righteousness" it was imputed from his creator.
LittleToe

EW:
Look at it this way, God looks down upon earth and sees no one that is "righteous" does not that leave Adam out?

Not at the point it's stated. But it's never stated before the fall, is it?
When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??
Methinks you are attempting to put your theology into a very tight straitjacket that the text doesn't require - just my 2p.
My viewpoint on the timing of it would be that it must have been no sooner than the point when there were unrighteous men to view. It's a statement made in time, not eternity.
You never did answer directly whether or not you believe Adam was created unrighteous...
You also are trying to twist my plainly stated perspective, by saying that I think Adam had "a bit of righteousness". IMHO he was righteous from the beginning. He didn't become unrighteous until a certain point in time wherein he performed an unrighteous act. By what stroke do you condemn him before he commits a sin? Have you been watching "Minority Report", with Tom Cruise?
It also brings into question your understanding of "imputed righteousness".
What is it required for, again?
I ask because that may shed some light on whether or not an "innocent" Adam required it...
As a friend of mine once put it:
"Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism share a common goal - full rationalism, to the exclusion of the other perspective.
"The Calvinist sits somewhat in between, accepting that the truisms of 'God's Sovereignty' and 'Man's Responsibility' are an unfathomable dichotomy."
ellderwho

You never did answer directly whether or not you believe Adam was created unrighteous...

I do not feel that Adam was created righteous! Therefore that leaves the other " un-righteous"
When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??
Why was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?
IMHO he was righteous from the beginning. He didn't become unrighteous until a certain point in time wherein he performed an unrighteous act.
Forgive the insertion of words into your mouth however, read a little between the lines here:
EW...You continue to want Adam to have a bit of righteousness, but are unable to point at where he would have obtained it from.
What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?
Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.
Comments?
ellderwho

When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??
Shortly thereafter, because it was not "good" that Adam be alone
LittleToe
EW:
I do not feel that Adam was created righteous! Therefore that leaves the other " un-righteous"

Thanks for finally showing some candor.
On what grounds do you declare the newly created and innocent Adam "unrighteous"?
Merely because you have difficulty calling him righteous?
Why was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?
We've covered this angle when discussing the Lapsarian Controversy.
God didn't make His statement about all man being unrighteous in Eternity, though, did He?
It was a statement made at a time when it was obvious what was being talked about, not at a tie before man was even created!
What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?
Let me just clarify some logic here, for you.
We are required tro obtain it because we never had it and were unrighteous from the beginning. Adam would have been required to obtain it after he became unrighteous.
However he wasn't created with any kind of history of unrighteousness.
In the beginning he didn't need to obtain it at all, as he was performing 100% righteous acts.
That pristine record wasn't sullied until dinnertime.
Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.
I don't want to read into that something that you aren't saying, and so I find it vague.
I suspect that you are getting at there being some kind of seed that would later flourish into sin. If that's the case, then I think that you may need to revisit the whole concept of "inherited sin". Who did Adam inherit his sin from? God??
God forbid, that should be the case. Adam authored it himself. Being made in God's image gave him creative potential, within the bounds of the created resources around him.
Shortly thereafter, because it was not "good" that Adam be alone
Slippery little attempt at a side-step, but it will avail you nothing on three counts.
- First, "it is not good" is not the same as declaring "Adam was not good".
  It's a declaration that Adam's circumstances could be improved, not that Adam and creation per se were inherently flawed.
- Secondly, it still allows a time lapse between statements.
- Thirdly, If you truly want to use that as evidence, then you are now siding with the Arminians, as it would appear that God was blindsided by this need, completely caught unawares that Adam would have an unplanned need.
You've actually highlighted the single strongest piece of evidence that God didn't plan it at all, and just went with the flow creating things adhoc.
I don't personally believe that to be the case, but then it wasn't I that introduced the text in this context
A similar one is that it wasn't until after Adam was created that he was brought to the garden.
It seems that Adam's lot was improving all the time.
ellderwho

Thanks for finally showing some candor.
I thought I stated my position earlier, by defualt, anyway.......
What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?
Let me just clarify some logic here, for you.
We are required tro obtain it because we never had it and were unrighteous from the beginning. Adam would have been required to obtain it after he became unrighteous.
However he wasn't created with any kind of history of unrighteousness.
In the beginning he didn't need to obtain it at all, as he was performing 100% righteous acts.
That pristine record wasn't sullied until dinnertime.
You state "we are required" to do something such as obtaining righteousness, how is that done?
And back-up your argument and tell me how Adam went about obtaining it. (after the fact)
Further you are assuming Adam was righteous to begin with, and you also assume Adams' created properties.
You state Adams history, with no unrighteousness, then I can state Adams history as not having one, and esspecially not a righteous one. (end result)
Tell me what, in Adams short, if at all history defines him as righteous? (good does not qualify as righteous)
If Adam is righteous "out of the gate" then he must have not been experienced at it because "it" failed him miserably. And it didnt last long.
LT:...Who did Adam inherit his sin from? God??
God forbid, that should be the case. Adam authored it himself.
Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
EW.....Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.
LT.....I don't want to read into that something that you aren't saying, and so I find it vague.
I suspect that you are getting at there being some kind of seed that would later flourish into sin.
Vague.......? its really not that complicated, you have to face the fact that all Adam was, was given him in the creative process, no?
Is the above thought assuming, or is it logical? Its interesting you feel "suspect" that Im implying some sort of seed thought that turned out to be sin. With that did Adam do what he did because of natural desires?
First, "it is not good" is not the same as declaring "Adam was not good".
Huh? I thought it was "all good"
When did good become righteous?
LittleToe

ROFL
Methinks you are probably enjoying this as much as I am
I thought I stated my position earlier, by defualt, anyway.......
I don't like putting words into people's mouths.
Unless it's stated clearly, there's room for error.
You state "we are required" to do something such as obtaining righteousness, how is that done?
Simply put, go to Christ.
And back-up your argument and tell me how Adam went about obtaining it. (after the fact)
No I didn't. I stated he had it. Later he would have needed to obtain it, if he were to be saved.
Further you are assuming Adam was righteous to begin with, and you also assume Adams' created properties.
It's not a property, it's a standard. Hence it is diametrically opposed to sin.
Tell me what, in Adams short, if at all history defines him as righteous? (good does not qualify as righteous)
Unlike us, he had a "good starting point. He could act righteously (whereas it seems that regardless of how much we might do that could be called good, it's tainted with sin). Up until he transgressed God's law (sinned) he was acting righteously. Even his breathing was righteous, coz he was one righteous dude
Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
His authoring sin was his first unrighteous act.
It was at that point that he was no longer righteous.
Vague.......? its really not that complicated, you have to face the fact that all Adam was, was given him in the creative process, no?
No I don't. He had external factors, too, which he blended. Fruit, law, temptation, etc.
It was how he blended the cocktail that led to him authoring sin.
Whilst Domestos invented the bleach product, they placed explicit warnings about keeping it out of the reach of children, and not to mix it with other household products.
With that did Adam do what he did because of natural desires?
You'd need to be careful about how you frame that. Adam by nature was innocent, not sinful. We have little, by way of direct experience, with which to compare.
Huh? I thought it was "all good"
When did good become righteous?
Acting righteously is adhering to a standard of "good".
Being good is possessing desirable qualities and moral excellence.
ellderwho

EW...You state "we are required" to do something such as obtaining righteousness, how is that done?

Simply put, go to Christ.

I thought your were a Clavinist?......... Required??
No I didn't. I stated he had it. Later he would have needed to obtain it, if he were to be saved.
So he was created with it. Like I tried to say before.
It's not a property, it's a standard. Hence it is diametrically opposed to sin.
Fine, Adam was created with this standard of righteous.
Up until he transgressed God's law (sinned) he was acting righteously.
Okay, now you have Adam authoring sin while righteous!..... Doesnt sound very righteous to me.
Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
His authoring sin was his first unrighteous act.
Your not answering the question......remember you said;
You never did answer directly whether or not you believe Adam was created unrighteous...
Please show some candor........ I dont like putting words in anyones mouth either.
He had external factors, too, which he blended. Fruit, law, temptation, etc.
It was how he blended the cocktail that led to him authoring sin.
C'mon LT you can do better than that......... Bleach
Acting righteously is adhering to a standard of "good".
Being good is possessing desirable qualities and moral excellence.
Whoa, doing a bit of spinning here.
No, being good is a standard of righteousness.
Im a sinner trying to be righteous. Not a righteous christian that sins sometimes.
LittleToe

EW:
I thought your were a Clavinist?

No, I've never been one of those. I don't play the clarinet, either
LOL
Besides, be very careful not to tar anyone with the brush of a particular group and expect that you have their whole belief system sussed.
Methinks we're hiiting a communication gap, and it's probably down to definitions again.
I truly am struggling to see where you're coming from and evidently aren't answering your questions to your satisfaction. Please be assured that I'm trying to be as forthright with honest answers as I can be.
How are you defining "good" and righteous"? I'm wondering if that's part of the problem.
At first Adam was good, and declared such, though he later fell from that state of excellence and it could ultimately be stated that not one man was good.
Whilesoever he had a pristine record he could be declared righteous, but even a portion of one percentile of unrighteousness would blemish that record, as occured at a later date. Hence it can be stated that not one man is righteous (in his own merits).
That doesn't negate that there's a limited number of people who walked the earth and at one time bore a pristine record. Try Adam, Eve, and Jesus. The latter being the only one to bear it thoroughly, never falling into sin. With your strict reading of scripture you should actually bring his righteousness into question, too...
When people claim that someone did a "good" thing, do they not actually mean that they did a "right" thing? (though even that is a bit of a misnomer, given that even our most righteous of acts will be blemished with sin - as one put it, even the tears of a penitent sinner need to be washed in the blood).
Okay, now you have Adam authoring sin while righteous!..... Doesnt sound very righteous to me
Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
You're mixing righteousness with good, hence my comment that it was his first unrighteous (or wrong) act. He was "good" yet mixed his circumstances in such a way as to become the author of bad. Of course he had assistence, but the decision was his and he bore the responsibility for that.
Im a sinner trying to be righteous. Not a righteous christian that sins sometimes.
I'm a sinner, yes.
I struggle away trying to act in a righteous manner, yes, as the war between spirit and flesh rages.
I AM a righteous Christian in so much as Christ's righteousness is imputed to me (not because of anything inherently righteous in and of myself) and I do sin - not just sometimes but ALL the time.
If I were to stand on my own merits alone I could claim no title of righteousness, and I would concur with you that that is the position of the "worthies" named in scripture.
However I have a different inheritance to that which Adam enjoyed at first. I was born in sin and unrighteousness, being "totally depraved".
Adam, on the other hand was created "good", "perfect", "sinless", and his every activity was righteous.
It's only in an examination of his life that we see the full gamut of the natures of "innocence", "falling" and "grace" (assuming he was saved, which I tend to lean towards).
Hence IMHO any examples that use our own state to explain Adam in innocence, will fail miserably.
ellderwho

I thought your were a Clavinist?

No, I've never been one of those. I don't play the clarinet, either
Yes I do make typos.
Okay, now you have Adam authoring sin while righteous!..... Doesnt sound very righteous to me
Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
You're mixing righteousness with good, hence my comment that it was his first unrighteous (or wrong) act. He was "good" yet mixed his circumstances in such a way as to become the author of bad. Of course he had assistence, but the decision was his and he bore the responsibility for that.
How is it that Im the one mixing here? I never once implied or said Adam was righteous, further your the one that brought up the "very good" statement.
Why cant you answer a simply question, was Adam righteous while he sinned. Or as you put "author sin"??
Please be assured that I'm trying to be as forthright with honest answers as I can be.
Well whats your response?
Adam, on the other hand was created "good", "perfect", "sinless", and his every activity was righteous.
So Adams perfect mind could not keep him from sinning?
And his righteous activities did not include sinning correct?
Further theres no proof Adam was perfect let alone righteous.
His record shows he was neither

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