Freedom to Choose God (page 59)

ozziepost

Gumbles,

Go on, I'll give you a clue! http://www.persecution.com

Cheers, Ozzie

Blessed are the bewildered - for they won't notice!

ozziepost

I also would like to know what the REASON was, that jesus said his followers would be persecuted.

"Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name for they do not know the One who sent me." - John 18:20,21 (NIV)

LittleToe

Ozzie:

Being in unity doesn't mean being ~~unified~~ uniform. That's the false message the WTS puts out, that they must be the true christians because they're "the only ones" who are in unity whereas in fact what they mean is they're ~~unified~~ uniform and that's quite different. (LT's note: edits mine)

I think that can clearly be seen on this thread, too. UnDisfellowshipped, DeputyDog, EllderWho and myself have contributed widely differing opinions on certain things, with some pretty robust turns of phrase, yet for all that difference there's an underlying unity that has little to do with doctrine and rhetoric!

EW:

Did this reasoning apply to Luciferr?

First things first, I take it you mean Satan, as there's a question mark over whether or not Lucifer is one of his names, in some circles (including mine).
Secondly, I believe the bible to be silent on that.
Thirdly, my opinion would be yes. Satan was permitted (allowed) to do what he did.
Some conject that he was specifically tasked with doing so, acting as an "evil spirit from God", but I personally feel that this would impose a contradiction with Jesus words about him.

This is my point, why was that tree there, with its "good and evil" And where did that evil come from?

We're back to assumptions again.

Firstly, the tree was actually named "The tree of the knowledge of good and bad"
Secondly, there are scant details about what that actually meant, which is exacerbated when we look at the dissimitude between the base texts the interwoven stories come from.
Thirdly, my opinion would be that Adam already knew good, but by partaking of the tree (you'll recall that Eve believed that just touching it was sinning) he came to know the evil repercussions of sin. Hence the evil proceeded from a sinful act which...... (James 1:13-15)

Certainly you have a idea of what the powers and principalities is reffering to?

There's a WIDE variety of opinion on this one.
Personaly I take that text to mean the various authorities from heaven right down through to the food-chain (usually, but maybe not exclusively, in the spirit realm).

Then what kind of evil do you mean?

It might be a little clearer to use the word "bad", for a moment.
Some people seem downright bad, due to their words and actions. Some actions are bad, as are some consequences.
I hold that God is responsible for the bad repercussions that come upon people who are bad, but not the bad that they did, that rightly invoked His displeasure.

To my understanding God isn't the author of bad. Even in the case of Pharoah He only hardened Pharoah's heart, so that Pharoah exercised the bad that he was already disposed to.

Did God create "bad", or did He not rather say "it is good!".
This would get back to the essence of the contrasts I presented earlier.
Perhaps it's accurate to state that bad/evil are the absece of good.

To take that further, I don't think that God actively interferes with every aspect on man's life. The occurences of interferance are well attested to in Scripture, but only cover a minor portion of the life of a people. Can't you see that experientially, in the realm of prayer?

LT Wrote: How do define grace?
EW Wrote: I kinda like the Jw term, dare I say "undeserved kindness"

Sad to say, so do I - LOL
It sticks in my throat every time I use that phrase in company, though.
Darn - they remain an influence on my vocabulary!

So is that a mechanical thing, or does it come from a loving and compassionate heart?
I guess I'm trying to say that I'd rather view that God truly loves me, than feel like a domino or a cog.
Such is the effect of your doctrine on this soul...

gumby

Oh Glumly, when will you Americans learn that the USA is a small part of the earth's surface!!

The point is......WHY are not the american christians persecuted like the other christians in other countries?

Also.....the answer you gave as to WHY Jesus said his followers would be persecuted was because of ...."his name". What does that mean? Does that mean non-believers persecute believers because believers believe in a real man called jesus? What did jesus mean ........."because of my NAME" ?

Gumbeguilled

LittleToe

Gumby:Just to stir the pot a little, before I leave you to Ozzie
Do you believe the majority of nominal Western Churchianity is actually "Christian"?

ozziepost

Does that mean non-believers persecute believers because believers believe in a real man called jesus? What did jesus mean ........."because of my NAME" ?

Unwittingly the WTS have provided some interesting information on that same point, under the word, Name in the "Insight" book.

Name involves much more than a simple label, like Gumbles or Ozzie, but as the Insight book states: "In Scriptural usage, "name" often denotes fame or reputation."

So the name of Jesus encompasses all that he is, far more than merely stating the word "Jesus" which even the blasphemers can utter but that would hardly be cause for persecution for speaking it.

gumby

Do you believe the majority of nominal Western Churchianity is actually "Christian"?

I believe ....from a biblical point of view ....that jesus looks with favor upon those in the western world when he looks down from heaven into their hearts and see's them all giving him and his father praise in the only way that they know how, and in a way THEY feel is pleasing to him.

Why would he feel any less for them?

Gumby

ozziepost

Why would he feel any less for them?

He wouldn't but notice that we've spoken of individuals having a loyalty, relationship, what you will, with God, not through or even with an organisation.

gumby

"name" often denotes fame or reputation."

Ozzoffpointster....your not nailing it yet me thinks.

Do persecuters of christians persecute them because they actually HATE what jesus stands for and because of what he taught? He was a good man who showed love and kindness.......so why would people hate that.......why would even a muslim? What is it about his name or what that name MEANS that they hate, and what is it specifcally that these ones HATE about his followers? Be specific .......pretty please!

Gumby

ozziepost

He was a good man who showed love and kindness.

Well yes, on occasions, but is that all you see in Jesus Christ, a man who went around being nice and kind? Isn't there more to it than that? The secular world would like to reduce him to something less than he really was - it's more convenient that way.

Do persecuters of christians persecute them because they actually HATE what jesus stands for and because of what he taught? He was a good man who showed love and kindness.......so why would people hate that.......why would even a muslim? What is it about his name or what that name MEANS that they hate, and what is it specifcally that these ones HATE about his followers?

you're kidding, of course, aren't you? Aren't you???? Moslems don't hate Christians?????

You Americans sure are funny!!

Freedom to Choose God

Share this