Freedom to Choose God (page 54)

ellderwho

It was good, thanks.

What are your thoughts on the creating of the "darkness" issue?

E.

LittleToe

I haven't been able to think any more on it.

My only immediate reaction is that in Genesis One we see the creation of light, with a pre-existant darkness.
It's the same word used here as in Isa.45:7.
That would also be in accord with my thoughts on John One and Three.

The context of Isaiah appears to be in connection with the earth, with night and day. So I still need to do some work on it

outbutnotdown

LT,

Now where the heck did my Bible go? The kids were doodling in it on the weekend and now I can't find it. However, it is just as well, since my point can be made without reading Galatians. I'm sure it is good advice..... my point is that..... that it, like many other teachings, whether they be Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist, are wise words of advice, but it is also only the CHRISTIAN opinion, and should not be taken as gospel..... no pun intended...... .

I think funkyderek makes some good points to myelaine. I'll just leave my comment at that.

Brad

LittleToe

Brad:
Maybe this'll help

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Gal+5%3A16-17&MSG_version=yes&language=english

Deputy Dog

LT If I'm a "HyperCalvinist", does this make you a HypoCalvinist?

I believe that the way it went is potentially fairer, and tidier, but it's mere speculation on my part.

Here are some of Calvins words on the topic.

INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION

By John Calvin

Book 1 Chapter 15. State in which man was created. The faculties of the soul - The image of God - Free will - Original righteousness.

At present it is necessary only to remember, that man, at his first creation, was very different from all his posterity; who, deriving their origin from him after he was corrupted, received a hereditary taint. At first every part of the soul was formed to rectitude. There was soundness of mind and freedom of will to choose the good. If any one objects that it was placed, as it were, in a slippery position, because its power was weak, I answer, that the degree conferred was sufficient to take away every excuse. For surely the Deity could not be tied down to this condition - to make man such, that he either could not or would not sin. Such a nature might have been more excellent; but to expostulate with God as if he had been bound to confer this nature on man, is more than unjust, seeing he had full right to determine how much or how little He would give. Why He did not sustain him by the virtue of perseverance is hidden in his counsel; it is ours to keep within the bounds of soberness. Man had received the power, if he had the will, but he had not the will which would have given the power; for this will would have been followed by perseverance. Still, after he had received so much, there is no excuse for his having spontaneously brought death upon himself. No necessity was laid upon God to give him more than that intermediate and even transient will, that out of man?s fall he might extract materials for his own glory.

LT, How can you say that you believe in an all knowing, just and mercyfull God and think of speculating on his fairness, or do you think this is not exactly what he planned or had in mind?

D Dog

ellderwho

DDOG,

No necessity was laid upon God to give him more than that intermediate and even transient will, that out of man?s fall he might extract materials for his own glory.

You could have just quoted this part, it does just fine.

LT?

E.

Deputy Dog

LT

My only immediate reaction is that in Genesis One we see the creation of light, with a pre-existant darkness.

What came first? God or darkness.

D Dog

outbutnotdown

LT,

Sometimes the best advice is that which is the least complicated, so all I want to say is: " ".

I hope it helps........

Brad

LittleToe

DDog:
I was speculating from a human point of logic, not on the true fairness or lack thereof

Regarding "what came first", the argument is surely as moot as "when did the Son become such?".
God is eternal, there being nothing before or after (because there is no before or after).
Hence you're setting up a false dichotomy of black and white thinking, i.e. since nothing was before God, then darkness must have come afterwards. Personally I find such arguments extreme.

However there is no indication as to when darkness began, either.
If (as I suspect it does) Isa.45:7 refers to the night of Gen.1:3-5, then we need to ask whether or not God's pre-Genesis acts created a universe that was wholey dark and without light, or else was darkness part of eternity also?
Since God is light (specifically "the Word"), and we hold that He is omnipresent, was it possible for darkness to have existed in eternity? However if God truly has the ability to create "darkness", then where is the argument against it?
Finally, since it is specifically "the Word" that is refered to as light, could it be that one of the other persons of a Triune God who held the office and properties of darkness?
Or is that concept to Taoist (Yin/Yang) for Bible-based minds?
It would also mean that we need to box clever when discussing 1John 1:5, but no less so than in relation to His omnipresence.

EW:
That passage is Calvin's own speculation on the matter
Whilst I agree that there was no "necessity laid upon God", the state of "innocence" in not one of which we can truly enquire. On the subject the bible makes similar comments to Brad, i.e. " ".

Brad:
I seem to recall making a simlar statement a few pages back, but got embroiled in a discussion founded in speculation and specious reasoning, anyway - LOL.

ellderwho

LT, I think we should back up here.

The sole reason for quoting Is 45:7 was to show where God creates everything. This is what scripture states.Evil, darkness everything, Period.

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. KJV

The word "evil" by Strongs def. is word 7489

1) to be bad, be evil

a) (Qal)

1) to be displeasing

2) to be sad

3) to be injurious, be evil

4) to be wicked, be evil (ethically

LT If (as I suspect it does) Isa.45:7 refers to the night of Gen.1:3-5, then we need to ask whether or not God's pre-Genesis acts created a universe that was wholey dark and without light, or else was darkness part of eternity also?

This is just clouding the issue. Did God create evil in Isa. 45:7?

E.

Freedom to Choose God

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