Carmel
Thanks for sharing those interesting points. It's always good to get a fuller picture.
SS
The history of Islam
by Elsewhere 111 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
heathen
I did see a discovery channel special on the crusades and such . I think the christian crusaders were just as bad as the moslem extremists . They were just as apt to fight amongst themselves and use cruel torture techniques . In fact the church influence in the european government was the main reason people fled to the americas .
-
gumby
My opinion still stands that Islam is an inherently violent religion that wishes to conquer the world and establish a world wide Islamic state
Sounds like the witnesses a bit doesn't it? Jehovah will conquer every single soul who isn;t a witness and the earth will be filled with nothing but dubs.
The only difference is....the dubs let Jehovah do the slaughtering of human life, whereas the Islamic religion fights their own battles and they do the slaughtering themselves. Both are pretty much psychotic evil bastards.
Gumby
-
scotsman
Thi Chi
Without reference to Islam, how would you describe the history of Christianity?
-
Abaddon
And what about Christianity?
Hmmmm... North America; ethnic cleansing and genocide of the First Nations people by immigrants under what was called "The Divine Mandate".
Hmmmm... South America; chopped up between Portugal and Spain before they even really knew what was there with the line being so arbitary Portugal's half was just Brazil. Native people's subjected to forcable conversion, death, slavery and other indignities in the name of the god of the Bible.
Hmmmm... Africa; centuries of exploitation by European powers. Religiously-backed apartheid reigeme in SOuth Africa typical of the 'values' displayed by many white Christians in colonial times; black were ignorant savages incapable of governing themselves so the land often became the property of the white, Christian Europeans. Ethically ambivalent conversions galore.
Hmmmm... China; the jolly old British used military force to make the Chinese accept shipments of Opium. How Christian; the first wave of boats full of drugs with the missionaries bringing up the rear.
Hmmmm... Middle East; well, the Crusades are a good example of Christian territorial hunger in the name of god. After WWI 'white man's lines' drawn onto maps dividing territory between the European powers set-up most of the political struggles in the area for the next 90 years. Over 30% of Americans bvelieve that the modern state of Israel is a fulfilment of Biblical prophecy and I guess therefore support Israel's hunger for land for religious reasons
... and that's ignoring a hell of a lot.
I suppose it's understandable people being ignorant of a foreign culture and religion. Read one website and that's obiously all you need to know I guess.
It's when they are ignorant of their own culture and religion you really have to start to worry.
Mary
I agree whole-heartedly with you but it's not just their religion, it's their culture too. Even before Mohammed got his uh, "revelations", they were an extremely violent bunch of people.
I'm glad that you differentiate between religion and culture; some don't. but to make "Even before Mohammed...they were an extremely violent bunch of people" anything OTHER than unsupported statements liable to make people feel negatively towards another culture or religion you would have to show that, for the period, the levels of violence in their society and against other societies were different to, oh, say, Europe in the - Christian - Dark Ages. You know, the ones who were following Jesus and his, uh "revelations"... persecution of Jews was rife, along with the seizurer of Jew's land and other assets... in the name of god... in a period where Chritians and Jews had freedom of religion in Islamic lands. Muslims recogised the shared traditions of 'people of the Book'. The convert or die by the sword thing was every bit as real as the same policy practised by Christian missonaries hundreds of years later but ONLY applied to pagans.
In fact, when Mohammed first tried preaching to these people, there were numerous attempts on his life.
Just like the Jews when Jesus preached? Wow, so Jews are violent too. Oh, yeah - you live in a country where many of the original wave of immigrants were people with, uh, "revelations" which they suffered risk of violence for at home... from other Christians.
Incest, rape, robbery and muder were commonplace.
Please cite your sources for these claims and show that these characteristics were unusual for the period. If you can't, then you are misrepresenting a culture in a way liable to make others feel negatively towards another culture or religion.
Interestingly enough, Islam flourished the best when you didn't have a bunch of religious fanatics running the show.
Please show from historical sources that the rulers of the Islamic world at the time differed to any great degree with the religiosity of their Christian counterparts in Europe... ya know, the one's who were going on Crusades... you seem to confuse INTENSITY of belief with the various practises of belief any religion goes through over the course of time. They believed just as much as their Chritian counterparts, but believed different things.
From the 8th Century to about the 12th century, Islam collected a fabulous treasure of philosophy, art, riches, science and wealth all during the time when Christianity was going through it Dark Ages.
In fact, the stories of The Arabian Nights with their fabulous wealth is based on this time period.
Correct.
It was in the late 19th or early 20th centuries, when the ruler of Saudi Arabia, a fanatical moron, changed the face of Islam and instead of progressing, they started to regress and they've been regressing ever since.
Since when did the actions of the Saudi ruler cause the entirity of Islam to regress? There are MANY Muslims who don't hold with the beliefs of that school of Islam. There are many Chritians, I am sure, that you don't hold indentical beliefs to. Bad actions by those (and if you say you don't know what you mean about bad actions by Christians in a religiously polarised conflict... remember Northern Ireland...?) can conflict with your beliefs. Just as extremist Muslims' beliefs conflict with the vast majority of Muslims' beliefs
They are also being badly affected by the extremists by nature of association; they're Muslims too. Just like peace-loving Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland felt other Catholics were calling down shame upon their faith.
And just as some of those peace-loving Catholics even refused to accept men of violence WERE Catholics. Some Muslims feel exactly the same way about violent Muslims.
The lunatics that encourage fanatical terrorism are basically uneducated, backward, violent, religious idiots.
The clever ones who organise are normally smart and educated. They are the dabgerous ones. The cannon fodder are often uneducated. The religious fire-brands vary in their brain and education. Some are backward misogynists, others are calculating and all the more dangerous.
They have no toleration for any view but their view and they take the Koran all at face value.
Yeah, I loathe fundamentalists with no tolerance for other people's views. Christian fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalist, Marxist fundamentalists...
They ignore the fact that the founder of their faith was a pedophile (marrying a 6 year old girl and consumating the marriage when she was 9), a violent madmad who most definitely promoted the idea of "conquor or kill" attitude.
I think you'll find tragically young 'marriages' throughout Christian Europe. Many young Princes and Princesses were married-off at nursery age. Obviously there is no way any reasonable person can counternance the idea of a 9 year-old girl being old enough for sex. The de-facto "age of consent" in Europe was 12, by means of Church law I believe. That isn't a whole lot better. And what I object to is you are willing to describe someone from a culture where this was considered acceptable as a pedophile, but will probably be unwilling to describe the many millions of men in Europe and in America who married 12, 13, 14 year-old girls when it was considered socially acceptable to do so.
And why was it considered socially acceptable? Because women (as with Islam, with a lot of help from the Holy Book of choice) were chattel; possessions to keep house and provide an heir. Wow, how wonderful a life Christianity provided people by contrast... Now age of consent means "when old enough to give informed consent", not "when old enough to menstrate", thankfully.
Your mistake, uh Mary, is the obviously religiously biased slant of your view. You have no respect for another religion or their, uh "revelations". You seem to think Islam as a religion is invalid. From my point of view whatever particular variety of belief you espouse would probably also be invalid.
You then present information to portray Islam as intrinsically dangerous in a very partial and selctive fashion. It's easy to make out Christians to be blood-stained lunatics by nature of belief if you're as selective with your facts as you are, despite the fact most Christians are peace-loving people.
Just like most Muslims.
One problem that does cause apprehension is seeing demonstrations of Muslims in moderate Islamic countries (like Indonesia, invaded by 0 Muslim soldiers and the largest Islamic country in the world), speaking of some form of brotherhood.
I wonder how many American Roman Catholics felt some form of brotherhood when they helped fund the terrorist operations of the IRA in Northern Ireland? NORAID kept the IRA afloat for years.
How many Jews favour Israel's actions, despite the human right issues current Israeli policy raises?
People are so selective. They criticise for one, alien group, what they accept in they accept in other more familair groups.
The facts are you can give someone a Mercedes, a cell phone and Air Nikes, but if it is 1870 in his head it will still be 1870 in his head. Think of that next time you drive pas\t an Amish buggy - they're old on the outside; much of the Arab world is still deeply traditonal and hundreds of years behind modern concepts of humans rights and society on the INSIDE.
It is not in the book or their belief where the dangers lie. The dangers hide in those who would put religious scruple over human rights. And just as certain schools of Christian thought have done that. so to do Islamic ones. I think it's largely because of the culture-shock the modern outside and old inside refered to above gives.
Unstable cultures undergoing dramatic change are likely to give rise to reactionary traditionalists. It's really rather obvious.
IRA members didn't kill children with bombs in shopping streets because Roman Catholicism is intrinsicaly evil. They did it because THEY were being evil - an evil born of the social pressures they grew up with.
Carmel
Mary is correct in the cultural aspects of the Arabians. They burried their new born daughters alive, performed horrendous debauchery and were want to go to war at the drop of a hat.
And the difference with Christianity IS? Reading further I don't think you ARE saying they were THAT different from Christians.
She is also correct that Islam has declined over the centuries, not unlike Chistianity, to look nothing like its origin.
Fair comment.
In fact within a year after the Prophet's (that's right Mary) death, the rigthful inheritors of Muhummed's leadership were over run by those that chose leaders by election or military action. They became the Suni muslims, those who followed the right of primogenitor became the Shiites.
Yeah, Christians had to be killed by non-Christians for YEARS before they started killing each other. But again, your later comments mellow this.
While contemporary values would label Muhammed a "pedophile" for taking in the orphan child of a faithful follower and eventually marriing her, in the culural context it was considered an act of charity to provide and protect an unprotected female.
It would be comparable to calling Jesus a "bastard" for being born of Mary out of wedlock, a term most Christians would recoil at.
Very fair comment, and an amusing one.
The militaristic nature of early Islam was essentually defensive in nature. Muhammed protected not only His followers but the Jews and Chistians as well from the onslaught of the tribal leaders of Mecca who waged war against the new movement.
Once the Sunni's assumed leadership, they turned military expansion into a way of life. Even at that, they were much more beneficient than the Mongols, the neighboring tribes or even the Crusuaders who really taught them the art of carnage. Even Saladin who re-captured Jerusalem, allowed those he conquered to remain in peace, if they chose. Most did, only the fanatical Christians who were blinded by hate were discharged. Not exactly how the Christian crusuaders handled things. They, encouraged by the corrupt papacy, killed every thing in site, muslims, christians and anyone that remotely looked Arab. Now that the fanatical muslims are doing the same thing,
I do so love it when someone knows what they're talking about.
we should be careful how we wag our fingers at them.
I am so happy. Thank you Carmel; we might not agree 100%, but it's a pleasure.
Thi Chi
Notice the use of "fanatical", Christians or muslims, that should gieve any thinking person a red flag right off the bat.
Well, I can agree with that, but I think we both know the Crusades degenerated into a glorified land-grab.
-
Cicatrix
Thank you, Abaddon, for saying what I was thinking and then some!
-
ThiChi
Satanus:
I urge you to take up some reading on the subject, if you want an impartial view of History..
This is important: Medieval people would be shocked today at what we do for "political" expediency and why.
Do you know why this is so? If you don't I will explain. However, back to the facts of the matter:
Why did the Moors (Muslims) enter Spain unfettered? Because the feudal system of that time did not have a standing Army. Notwithstanding, The Followers of Christ did not have an army. The Christian Kingdoms, through the expense of the various Lords and vassals, committed land, possessions and money to drive the Moors out Spain.
Besides, your claim does not hold water, if one can march in and invade unopposed, this makes it right or justified? Give me a break. You seem to really bend over backwards for the ill in this world....
There were many "Crusades" in many other areas of the world, besides the Holy Land. Some took place in Europe itself, there were the Eastern Crusades that battled the Mongrels attacking from the North, and the Byzantium Crusades which involved the Turks and at other times, Arabs.
The "Holy Land" Crusades consisted of mainly four periods.
Remember, St. Augustine?s requirement of a Just war for Christians required that it could not take place for "conversions" only to repel invasions and conquests. Which they did.
Your St. John?s Knights History is incorrect. St. John?s Knights (England)are a more recent order that claims lineage from the Hospitalers (France) which were disbanded in the 15 th Century.
The Crusader States lasted for about two hundred years. Their outposts and fortifications are still in existence today, testaments to the commitment by Lords, Princes, and common folks who "Took up the Cross" to stop Islam?s onslaughts.
-
ThiChi
""Thi Chi
Without reference to Islam, how would you describe the history of Christianity?""
There are many aspects to this question.
The political aspect would be:
The ongoing process that has produced our Western Civilization, based of Judeo/Christian Values.
-
Realist
As it turns out, the Muslims have a habit of trying to take over the world. They have done it over and over throughout their history... and each time they have had their collective @$$ kicked.
they tried and failed. christianity on the other hand succeeded! one has to realize that if the muslims are guilty of agression than so are we.
-
ThiChi
""In fact the church influence in the european government was the main reason people fled to the americas .""
lol. You are off about six hundred years. In England, it was the Protestant/Puritans that some wanted to escape from, not "The Church" or the Catholics. By this time, the Governments removed themselves from Papal control long ago......
However, the people who did come to America did brought with them religion too. Read what the State?s Charters say about God.....