Thanks, Abaddon, for that helpful analysis of a brief history of religions and their respective wars waged. It was really good.
Pat
The history of Islam
by Elsewhere 111 Replies latest jw friends
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Satanus
Yes, Europe was saved from invasion.With all its faults, the Crusades saved Europe from invasion...
Not...""
Agian, you are wrong.
In 1479, Two Christion states of Argon and Castillle united to complete the reconquista. They would have been free to march on. I can cite the Crusade of Varna, The Crusade of Nicoplis, The rise of the Ottoman Turkes, the Crusading of the 15th Century, all as a defensive wars....
Spain had been invaded. Moors were well settled there for hundreds of yrs before they were expelled. Many mosques were built. One of the biggest is still standing today, being used as a church, i believe.
You see, it was successfully invaded, that is a fact. Didn't you say the same thing in a previous post? Or, are thinking that spain was not part of europe?
It is easy for morden people to dismiss the crusades as unjust, Such judgements, however, tell us more about people like Saint Satan than the observed.
Where did i make this judgement?
SS
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ThiChi
SS: Words mean things.."Not" means what to you?
You imply that the Christion states did not try to expell the invaders all those years...not true. If this is not what you mean, then, your post has no meaning at all.
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avishai
Abbadon,
Why is it that whenever someone points out how bad Islam sux, you have to bring how bad Xtianity and Judaism are, often unprompted? Why do you so vehemently defend a religion that is obviously just as bad, and talk up it's good points, without ever acknowledging good points about Judaism or Christianity?
To read your posts you'd think no muslim has done violence, ever, but every Christian and Jew is a baby killer. Why the extreme bias?
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Satanus
SS: Words mean things.."Not" means what to you?
You imply that the Christion states did not try to expell the invaders all those years...not true. If this is not what you mean, then, your post has no meaning at all.
What is it about 'not' that you don't understand? SS
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scotsman
Avishai
I get the impression that Abaddon puts Christianity, Judaism and Islam on an equal footing, all being guilty of crimes against humanity.
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Abaddon
Mary Mary quite contrary, if you refer with obvious, uh contempt, to another faith, then I don't think you should blame me for remarking your opinions are probably slanted as a result.
Your choice of words caused that reaction. Take responsibility for it. If you, uh weren't being disrespectful about another religion I suppose you have a good explanation for deliberately, uh phrasing it that way. But if you're saying you meant no, uh disrespect by that... well, quite frankly I don't believe you. Which part of treating others as you'd like to be treated yourself didn't you get?
As for evidence that Islam is not dangerous... I didn't say they weren't dangerous. Religions normally are, Christian ones included. You obviously should re-read my poost as this was partly the point; I can include bits about Hindu or Buhddist attrocities too if you want.
I don't think Islam is anymore intrinsically evil than Christianity and supplied plenty of collaboration to back this up.
the difference is that at least Christianity has made headway towards tolerance and the treatment of women, Islam hasn't - they're still living in the Dark Ages
If you'd read my post you would see that we agree in some areas. You're telling me that Islam is living in the Dark Ages; I said as much myself, accept I realise you can't tar all Muslims (or Christians) with the same brush) and that this backward element, rather than the entirity of Islam, is what we need to worry about.
I note you've not supported any of the statements you've made; is this because they were over-statements you actually can't support?
Thi Chi
Well, you consider Chritianity is the true faith, and I consider neither Christianity or Islam to be the true faith. We obviously disagree but I think we know this by now.
I was refered to "Mere Christianity" by a Christian and was very disappointed. I'd expected something more, but it was very small minded and parochial. I found basic arguments like the "we have a conscience therefore there is a god" utterly unfounded or flawed, and in this as in other areas Lewis showed no inclination for even looking at other possible explanations for things being the way they are.
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I suppose what this little discussion shows is that some people can be presented with a set of facts and come to two different conclusions. I see no great difference between Isalm and Christianity; their respective histories are equally dire, it's just Christianity has had the moderating influence of modern secularism rubbing off its sharp edges for three hundred years or so and Islam hasn't.
But the polar and oppositional view taken by some Christians is dangerous. It is as dangerous as the inimical views of Christianity pushed by equally vociferous Islamic couinterparts. And the true danger to all peace-loving people is if we let those with inimical and intolerant views of other peoples influence our actions.
What is really dangerous is the 'true' believer, of any creed, who will put religous scruple over the rule of law and human rights. And there are examples of that in any religion.
avishi
I'm rather obviously trying to provide a contrast. As some of the comments in this thread show, lots of people know dick about Islam. Why should they? Most are practising, nominal or lapsed Christians.
Some people genuinely believe Islam is intrinsically violent or bad. They believe this either because they are nasty little bigots or because they are mis-informed.
When I see posts that show either no knowledge of Christianity's past or a rather selective vison of it, and that this results in people presenting arguments that amount to Christian=good, Muslim=bad, I say something.
Normally that involves other major religions, as what you seem to be missing is that most actions Muslims are condemned for are done by other religion's adherants too; and not only at a large historical remove, as my example of Northern Ireland and modern Israel show.
When compared to each other, there's really not that much difference. If you take into account factors I've mentioned (the culture shock etc., the lack of three hundred years of moderation by association with secular modernism), then the current troubles are not only not surprising, but rather predictable.
If one believes a relgion is intrinsically evil, you will select different solutions to the problem than if you believe that a culture is backwards and in need of modernisation, education and democratisation. That's why it is important to talk about.
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Mary
If you'd read my post you would see that we agree in some areas. You're telling me that Islam is living in the Dark Ages; I said as much myself, accept I realise you can't tar all Muslims (or Christians) with the same brush) and that this backward element, rather than the entirity of Islam, is what we need to worry about.
Does it not seem rather scary to you that more and more young men are being recruited into the fanatical aspect of Islam, namely terrorism? They don't seem to give a damn who they kill just as long as they kill an "infidel". Not only is suicide bombing commonplace in Islam, it's encouraged! Strap a bomb to yourself, walk into a crowded bar in Jerusalem and blow yourself to kingdom come and take as many innocent people with you as possible. Not only are there 70 virgins waiting for you in heaven, but your family gets $25,000 from the government for your sacrifice, all in the name of Allah.
Even with educated Muslims, they're still behind the times. I took a course last year and there were some Muslim women sitting next to me. We started talking (as the course was on religion) and I asked them why they had to wear their scarves with not one hair showing, along with long sleeved tops and heavy pants when it's nearly 100 degrees outside. Answer? It's part of their religion and culture. These are well educated woment too. Even over here in a democratic land, they still think of themselves as second class citizens. The one girl told me that her aunt (who lives in Tehran) was put in prison for a month because some man walking down the street complained to the police that he could see a few strands of her hair. I asked her if this was normal. They assured me it was. Even if you take away the terrorists and suicide bombers, Islam is still backwards. I cannot think of one single aspect where they have progressed or even kept up pace with the rest of the world. If you can offer me some examples, I'm all ears. Men are allowed to beat their wives and children, even murder them, with absolutely no fear of repercussions from their law. We hear about these "honor killings" too, when a Muslim girl marries a man her family didn't approve of. The males will hunt you down no matter where you may run to and kill you, so that the "honor" of their family is reinstated.
I note you've not supported any of the statements you've made; is this because they were over-statements you actually can't support?
Not bloody likely. You seemed offended before when I stated that before Mohammed got his revelations, that they people were a murderous, violent bunch where incest, robbery and rape were commonplace. This is not my thoughts, as I didn't even know their history until I took a course it last year. The book The Sacred Paths of the West. Upper Saddle River, NJ.: Prentice Hall, 2 nd edition, 2001 by Theodore M. Ludwig, the required reading for the course, tells you this point blank.
The Qur'an tells us: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them" (8:65).
And here's some lovely quotes from Islam's spokesman the Ayatollah Khomeini from his book Tahrirolvasyleh
"...A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister..."
"...It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven....."
"....A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine....."
This sort of thinking is accepted throughout Islam, not just a small part of it. This is indeed a scary religion and culture...yes there are lots of rotten scriptures in the bible too, like in II Samuel when some guy gives his virgin daughter and a concubine to a murderous group of men outside instead of his male houseguest and they rape her all night long and then the guy cuts her up into 12 pieces. Pretty damn disgusting. The difference is that Christianity and Judaism realize of course that this is not acceptable behaviour and that alot of what's written in the bible (such as their attitude towards women), is no longer valid. Islam has yet to learn this.
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Abaddon
Mary
Apparently to you hearing about something means it is commonplace. If you had the time or inclination to look beyond the end of your nose you would realise that suicide bombers, as a percentage of Muslims, are far from commonplace.
Yet again you make over-statements liable to cause others to view another religion or culture as violent.
Yet again you look at the distorted hateful views of a minority as defining an entire culture and religion. Yet again you don't even look for the obvious examples of similar behaviour in other religions, such as Christianity.
If you looked for similar behaviour elsewhere you would find it.
If you found religions other than Islam can have violent individuals pursuing an extreme doctrine of hate and intolerance (as you would if you looked), then you would be unable to present your "Islam is different and evil world view".
And you miss the point when I ask you to back yourself up. I was asking you to show by comparison that Muslims and the originating Arabic culture differed from European Christians of the same period.
If European Christians behaved as badly or worse tham Muslims of the same period, then you have noo point.
And of course European Christians were pretty beastly to each other, and I think you'd find it hard to prove that life was substansively different in Arabia.
As far as their Holy Book being nonsense ... well, so's the Bible. Your point was?
Of course, you miss the point that Christians have claimed ludicrous things and done nasty things to others in the belief they were being rightous and in hope of a heavenly reward. If you paid any attention to it you would have to accept that there was a similarity.
Likewise, there have been groups that claim to be Christian that support misogyny and child abuse; but you quote the Muslim nutter, as you're biased.
And you then claim "This sort of thinking is accepted throughout Islam" which is just a lie. If it's not a lie produce evidence; if that view is accepted throughout Islam you won't have to try too hard to back it up, will you?
Again, you repeat the point I've made (Islam is primative) but ignore the reasons for it and conclude Islam is evil, rather than concluding Islam is backwards, which is what a more balanced examination of the facts reveals.
Carry on believing what you like...