The history of Islam

by Elsewhere 111 Replies latest jw friends

Mary

Abaddon has written; a reasoned, rational argument with plenty of examples to prove it. He hasn't defended any type of extremist, of whatever political or religious persuasion they may be. If you had read his posts you'd know that.

Ascot: In a nutshell, Abaddon claims that the only problem with Islam is the culture, not the religion. I say there's a major problem with the culture because the culture is based largely on their religion. I have concured that the history of Christianity was just as backwards as what Islam was, which is why Christians lived in filth and squallor during the Dark Ages and of course we have the horrific Inquisitions all done in the name of Christianity.
Now why did Christians and the general population live like this? It was largely due to the Christian (Catholic at the time) religion. Those in charge at the top wanted to keep the people ignorant and how better to do that than to stagnate them as a whole. Few were education and the only "truth" they knew, was what the Church told them. Questioning either your government or church (which were intertwined) could easily get you killed.
Islam today is not much different: their government AND culture is based largely on their religion. Islamic countries have not progressed along with the civilized world---they've regressed. And if a citizen in Iran, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia dared to openly criticize either their government or religion, they could easily find themselves at deaths door. This is not "stereotyping"----these are all facts and it's pretty pathetic that they're still living like they are in the 21st century. In my opinion, until Islam learns to separate "church" and state and live in a democracy, they'll never progress.
And like Heathen said: Why would anyone defend a religion that controls a person's life like Islam does? This is like a Witness defending the Watchtower every time something negative is reported about them!
We obviously have very different views of what Islam stands for and I don't think we're ever going to agree----we'll just go back and forth, back and forth, so perhaps we should just agree to disagree and move on.......
acsot

Mary, I get what you're saying - (believe it or not !) It's just that I've seen here how, once removed from dictatorial governments/cultural isolation, many Muslims' lives are freer and they are able to pursue their dreams/wishes/careers unimpeded by extremism while still practising (or not) their religion according to the way they choose.
I guess it's kind of like what came first - the chicken or the egg!
heathen

Again I have to agree with mary . The moslem religion has nothing to offer the world .. The only thing they portray is based on some writings of a very sick person named mohammed . I do not defend the churches of christiandom either but at least in these days they don't try to use God as a means to start holy wars .They don't approve of brainwashing young people as suicide bombers like the palestinian people are doing .The only reason they may appear peaceful in free nations is because they are themselves being controled by secular authorities but as we see what happened in Spain or 911 if they ever get the chance would probly do the same .IMO You go right ahead and worship anyway you want , I don't care but count me out . I do believe in freedom of religion and peaceful assembly which is a politically correct statement .To me the moslem religion is very dangerous .
Abaddon

Mary
You couldn't make yourself look more pathetic if you tried Mary.
You resort to childish retorts and straw man (that's got nothing to do with the Wizard of Oz by the way) characterisations of what I've been saying.
To try and make me out to be someone who supports Islam (or any religion) unquestioningly either shows how stupid you must think other posters are, or shows your own incomprehension.
You've made several sweeping statements about Islam which have each shown your ignorance of the subject and or your willingness to use hyperbole to bias people against Muslims. Despite being incontravertably wrong about facts on each of these occasions your opinion hasn't changed.
As you being wrong time and time again about facts doesn't chnage your opinion, I think that facts have little to do with your opinion in the first place.
You compare cultures which are vastly dissimilar EXCLUDING religion and put all the differences down to religion. Yes, of course, and the Aztecs didn't use cars because they weren't Christians.
I just wish we were talking about race so it would be clearer to more people exactly what you accusations and intolerance amount to.
It's religious bigotry, be it practised by Christians or Muslims or whatever, which is the real danger to the world in the next decade. And you're part of the problem Mary.
You're far too keen to portray Muslims as a danger to realise that the involvement of religion in government is typical of under-developed cultures; it's not a unique charcteristic of Islam. And you're so biased (I could always use 'stupid' instead) you can write this;
Those in charge at the top wanted to keep the people ignorant and how better to do that than to stagnate them as a whole. Few were education and the only "truth" they knew, was what the Church told them. Questioning either your government or church (which were intertwined) could easily get you killed.
... and not realise it applies to parts of the Islamic world today.
But hey, hating is so much easier than thinking
heathen
Again I have to agree with mary .
You don't have to do anything; you choose to agree with her. Yeah, I've covered this; you're very good at vacuous agreement but not very good at supporting why you agree. Nothing has changed.
The moslem religion has nothing to offer the world .
And you know everything about Islam? This is a rhetorical question, as I know you don't. If you're willing to say that from a position of ignorance, then 'bigoted' is the only word usable to describe your opinion.
The only thing they portray is based on some writings of a very sick person named mohammed.
Keep it up. You're going to tell me you're not bigotted aren't you?
I do not defend the churches of christiandom either but at least in these days they don't try to use God as a means to start holy wars.
And what was the murder of Muslim Serbs by Christian Serbs? You know, the ethnic cleansing and genocide? Try to develop at least some knowledge of the current affairs in the past decade before making yourself look silly.
They don't approve of brainwashing young people as suicide bombers like the palestinian people are doing.
I'll happily conceed that some religious beliefs or pseudo-religious beliefs can make people willing to kill themselves and others at the same time. Jones Town, Kamakazi bombers in WWII, the current wave of Islamic suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate. Personally I think the differnece between leaving a bag in a bar and blowing it up 15 seconds after you walk out the door (nice IRA tactic) is not that different from having the same thing being done by someone with explosives strapped to them AND gives the added benefit of killing the terrorist involved.
Oh, and the majority of Muslims oppose suicide bombing and many Muslims actually hold the religiously-based justifications of those who support such actions as unsound. But why let the fact most of 1.2 billion people oppose something stop you from accusing all of them to be a menace, eh?
The only reason they may appear peaceful in free nations is because they are themselves being controled by secular authorities but as we see what happened in Spain or 911 if they ever get the chance would probly do the same.
Ah, so every single Muslim is just waiting to wreak havok on the world. Why not stick them all in gas chambers heathen? Sorry to be offensive, but Nazis were making equivalently ridiculous claims about Jews to support their actions heathen, or are you ignorant of that as well? Do you actually know any Muslims... and if you do, do they know you think they're liable to go postal at the drop of a hat?
Stop where you are heathen, you've reached the bottom of the barrel.
scotsman, ascot, ignored_one; Cheers!
Mary

You couldn't make yourself look more pathetic if you tried Mary

Well Abaddon, believe me, the feeling is mutual and you don't even have to try.
To try and make me out to be someone who supports Islam (or any religion) unquestioningly either shows how stupid you must think other posters are, or shows your own incomprehension.
ROFLMAO!! Ya right, you don't support Islam ........Actually, with your statements Abaddon, you are doing a great job on your own showing that you do support Islam.
You've made several sweeping statements about Islam which have each shown your ignorance of the subject and or your willingness to use hyperbole to bias people against Muslims. Despite being incontravertably wrong about facts on each of these occasions your opinion hasn't changed.
Oh really? Please tell me which facts I was wrong on. That they treat women like second class citizen? That they promote suicide bombers? That citizens of Islamic countries aren't allowed to question either the government or the religion without major repercussions? Please, please tell me which of these statements aren't true.
It's religious bigotry, be it practised by Christians or Muslims or whatever, which is the real danger to the world in the next decade. And you're part of the problem Mary.
Riiight. It seems that in this day and age you have to tolerate absolutely everybodys religion and ideas, no matter how fucked up they are. The US goverment was warned for years about the repercussions of letting everyone and their brother into the country but they wouldn't listen as they didn't want to appear to be "politically incorrect." As a result, all those scumbag terrorists had and still have sleeper cells all over North America. Had the governments cracked down on immigration into the country years ago, it would've been a little more difficult for 9-11 to happen don't ya think? And please don't give me your comparison with what Timothy McVeigh did---he never blew up the Federal Building in the name of Christianity---the guy was a frigging lune. 9-11 happened all in the name of Allah.
You're far too keen to portray Muslims as a danger to realise that the involvement of religion in government is typical of under-developed cultures; it's not a unique charcteristic of Islam.
I never said it was unique to Islam, but that's what this posting was about.......what's your point.
And you're so biased (I could always use 'stupid' instead) you can write this;
Those in charge at the top wanted to keep the people ignorant and how better to do that than to stagnate them as a whole. Few were education and the only "truth" they knew, was what the Church told them. Questioning either your government or church (which were intertwined) could easily get you killed.
... and not realise it applies to parts of the Islamic world today.
Abaddon, are you really this stupid or do you just like to argue? I think you just like to argue because that's EXACTLY what I said in the very next sentence when I said: Islam today is not much different: their government AND culture is based largely on their religion.
I've looked at some of your other postings and it certainly became clear that you have a very inflated opinion of both yourself and your viewpoints. You seemed determined to "have the last say" to make it appear that you 'won' an argument. I saw you posted the following statement to dubya in another post
I?m glad you understand that this is the equivalent of a game of squash for me ? and I?m sure it?s roughly analogus to you. Part fun, part contest, taking pleasure from it and admiring or deriding one?s ?opponents ? ?game? as seems apt.
At first I figured it was just me that you were arguing with, but it seems as though I'm not the only one here who feels that you will go to the ends of the earth to win an argument---no matter how dumb your arguments may be. Oh, but I forgot---all your opinions are right and everyone here who disagrees with you is wrong!
Now let's hear another argument from you as to how wrong and dumb I am----again!!
ThiChi

Abaddon should be given kudos for his skilled use of circular logic. Ignoring valid points put forth by Mary and others, and glossing over facts of history and context, we are left with only false conclusions and false dilemmas, with hardly no substance at all. Bravo!!
The vary fact of the matter is the Muslim culture is driven by religion. Look at Iran?s Government, look at the Taliban. Look at what the very killers themselves say. To ignore this simple fact is to ignore History, the Present and reality.
We are in a time where we have a choice, we can try to rationalize this historical aggression (by their own leaders admission) away and start appeasements, and face a thousand years of darkness, or we can make the choice to stand up to this ongoing threat that will send us back to the 9 th century, if we loose.
Thank God, that people who hold Abaddon's viewpoints are the raddical fringe minority...
scotsman

We are in a time where we have a choice, we can try to rationalize this historical aggression (by their own leaders admission) away and start appeasements, and face a thousand years of darkness, or we can make the choice to stand up to this ongoing threat that will send us back to the 9 th century, if we loose.

Ah, the eschatalogical majority speaks! How do you propose to stop this incredible threat to the Christian West?
Mary, while I don't agree with Abaddon calling you names, your quotes from Khomeni aren't enough of a reason to negate all aspects of Islam. Have you spoken to many Muslim women about the issues you raise?
Mary

Scotsman asked: Mary, while I don't agree with Abaddon calling you names, your quotes from Khomeni aren't enough of a reason to negate all aspects of Islam.

Hi Scotsman: I'm not saying I think every Muslim has the exact same mentality as Osama Bin Laden, there are many Muslims who I think are good people, just like I think there are alot of Witnesses who are good people. That doesn't mean that the religion they belong to isn't screwed up. Look at the Watchtower. Lots of decent people, but their beliefs and practices are generally very negative. They shun their own flesh and blood if they don't agree 100% with the religion, children die because they don't take blood transfusions, they teach bizarre things like Christ is only the Mediator for 144,000, the false date setting, telling people years ago not to get married, have children or pay into pension plans, Rutherford's attempt at getting in on Hitler's "good" side.......the list goes on and on. So what happens when someone like say, Sword of Jah comes on this website and starts defending the Borg with circular reasoning and total avoidance of what their true nature is?
This is absolutely no different than what Abaddon is trying to do. He ignores or tries to justify every single example of Islam's evil by comparing it to some of the horrible things Christianity has done in the past. I've agreed over and over again that yes, Christianity's history is just as bad as Islams, the difference is that Christianity has progressed while Islam has not. He insists that it's merely their culture, not their religion that is to blame. This is utter nonsense, as their culture is based almost exclusively on their religion. His arguments are at times bizarre, especially the last one where he says:
And you're so biased (I could always use 'stupid' instead) you can write this;
Those in charge at the top wanted to keep the people ignorant and how better to do that than to stagnate them as a whole. Few were education and the only "truth" they knew, was what the Church told them. Questioning either your government or church (which were intertwined) could easily get you killed.
... and not realise it applies to parts of the Islamic world today.

when that's exactly what I did say in my posting. For some reason, he totally ignored it, solely for the purpose of argument.
Have you spoken to many Muslim women about the issues you raise?

Absolutely. Their viewpoints vary. Some of them have no problem being seen as second class citizens, but, like the Witnesses, that's all they've ever know. Some do not want to wear their headgear now that they live in a democracy, but their husbands still demand that they do and they're too afraid to "disobey" the Master. Nor do they see anything wrong with the founder of their faith, Mohammed being a warmonger and inciting his followers to jihads and other atrocious acts. That wall seems to go up with them the same way it does when you try talking to a Witness about the child abuse scandal, or failed prophecies or the UN scandal....they don't seem to want to know the truth about their religion.
Do I think all Muslims are evil? Of course not, but do think their religion is evil.
ThiChi said: Abaddon should be given kudos for his skilled use of circular logic. Ignoring valid points put forth by Mary and others, and glossing over facts of history and context, we are left with only false conclusions and false dilemmas, with hardly no substance at all. Thank God, that people who hold Abaddon's viewpoints are the raddical fringe minority...

Amen Thi Chi. Now let's wait for Abaddon's reply telling us how we know nothing about Islam's history, how stupid our comments are, and how right he is.
scotsman

Mary
I understand the comparison you're making between Witnesses and Islam, but would argue that Witnesses are a small part of Christianity, and that Islam has many subdivisions too, that's why I wouldn't say that Islam is screwed up - it's far too broad a generalisation. It has screwed up parts. But yes, it has remained isolated from the modernising influence of secular society and to our eyes appears archaic. But what is progress? The Enlightenment project to bring freedom and equality to everyone has failed, hence the rise of the religious right, not just in the Middle East but in America too.
While I oppose the submission of women in the Koranic and Biblical sense, I can also understand Muslims women's opposition to apparent western freedom which some perceive as degarding objectification. The BBC's Panorama programme on Sunday featured four Muslim women who wore the jilbab or headscarf entirely by their choosing, in one instance against the wishes of her parents. We believed Panorama when it exposed the JW child abuse issue, can we believe that head coverings are not simply a sign of religious oppression?
While you agreed that Christianity has a similar past to Islam's present, I guess you wouldn't say it was evil. If you're hoping for change within Islam, I agree with you, but if you're calling for Islam to be stopped (as Thi Chi would seem to like) then I would have to disagree.
heathen

abaddon -- If the muslim people in the arab nations had more tollerance for other religions then you might have a point . I well know they imprison ,torture and kill people over the religion. You've clearly turned a blind eye to the evils of Islam in a lame attempt to defend a culture that breeds hatred .
Mary --- You go girl . There's plenty of room at the bottom of the barrel , I just hope we are talking a keg of beer . He he .

The history of Islam

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