Bulger killers release - just?

by digderidoo 90 Replies latest jw friends

  • Jang
    Jang

    Unclebruce wrote

    If anyone rapes and slices up my daughters leaving them to crawl around and slowly die on the forest floor Jan (as happened near here two years ago) Heaven and Hell wouldn't stop me taking good old vigilante justice. I couldn't live with myself any other way.

    If an adult did that to my daughter mate you would have to get an army to stop me if they ever were released.

    My reference to Lindy was only for the purpose of an example of the type of case that should not be executed. It wasn't a strawman at all.

    What about the cases I said should be executed?

    I think the powers that be are too scared to debate the issue but they can write the law so that only certain types of cases be considered for the death penalty rather than a law where it was pretty much a blanket pentalty.

    JanG
    CAIC Website: http://caic.org.au/zjws.htm
    Personal Webpage: http://uq.net.au/~zzjgroen/

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    The Bulger case is a tragedy.

    Anyone who would deny the horror of what happened is a fool.

    However, an awful lot of people are just falling victim to chain-jerking sensationalism by the press.

    There are between 150 and 200 people who killed someone whilst under the age of 18 in jail in England. Some killed other children, others killed adults.

    I'm pretty sure that there will be a statistically similar number in other countries.

    The only reason that the boys who murdered Jamie are the victims of the lynch-mob mentality generated by the press is that their names were released to the press after their conviction. This was quite unusual, as normally in cases like this the names are not released in the UK.

    There are seventy to eighty others who will, as a result of European Human Rights legislation, be released in the next year or so. It used to be that people in such cases were detained 'at her majesties pleasure', and could be held until a politician decided they could go free.

    Funnily enough, that's a breach of human rights; endless sentences based upon political whim.

    All these others will just melt into society, unknown and unremarked, but having to live 'on licence', a stringent form of parole, for the rest of their lives, just like the two boys in the Bulger case will.

    But, just because these two boys were named by the trial judge, they do not get to serve the sentence passed upon them, they get to serve a life sentence of fear.

    Whether they deserve it or not is to a large extent immaterial. It is not justice, as it could only be justice if it happened to all such people.

    And how people can whip themselves into a fury at children I don't get. Can you imagine for one moment exactly what sort of background that they had to get them to the point where they did what they did?

    Their backgrounds shocked experienced social workers, so don't come they high and mighty. We all know how our minds can be twisted by our background, so I am surprised so many people just want to punish without asking why it happened.

    They were children, wharped, yes, but that is not their fault. You can get a ten year old to believe virtually anything. Why do you think that there are ages of legal competance? Because the very young are not legally competant.

    If you disagree, don't winge about 'when I was blah I blah'. That was you, this is them. Ages of competance, just like consent, are artificial figures that generally fit the circumstances, and they have gone up and down with societies opinions. If you disagree with the law, lobbey for change, don't attack two kids who are just the tip of the legal iceberg because it's easy and convenient and served up in bite-sized portions of hate by the press. Have a little more respect for yourselves than to be so ignorant as to destroy three lives instead of just the one.

    Adults who kill children don't have the same excuses. Parents who tortured and killed their children get to melt into society when they are released from jail. Why not attack THAT? They are, at least to one extent or the other, legally culpable.

    Of course, you might not believe in rehabilitation, or redemption, or forgiveness. You might believe in doing them to their death or locking them up forever. In that case, fuck off. We are obviously not going to agree.

    I think people can be rehabilitated. We all have been or are being rehabilitated from our background, and just because someone was wharped in a different more violent way than they way we were wharped does not give you the right, in my far from humble opinion, to become a judge.

    I do believe in redemption, that someone can turn their life around. We mostly have, and just because other people have further to go than we have doesn't mean you have the right to judge.

    And whilst I agree that, if it happened to me or mine, I would try to have my revenge, I think as a society we cannot live like that. If we did there would be no end to the bloodshed, not ever.

    It's the 21st Century for fucks sake. Haven't we learnt anything??? The greatest enemy of humankind is despair, and despair is all we have left if we cannot be rehabilitated, redeemed or forgiven.

    You might think a needle, noose or puff of gas better. Build a time machine and go back to where contempt for human life was more fashionable. Just because there are people LIKE them, doesn't mean we have to be LIKE them. We can be better, take a high ground. Set a fucking example rather than imitating those we punish.

    I do put caveats (conditions) on this. If someone presents a likely potential harm, reasonable efforts should be exercised to reduce that harm. Prison, probation, monitoring, registration; what extent would depend on the case and the class of crime.

    Yes, it's cheaper to just kill them, but only if you don't have an appeals system. And even if it were cheaper just to kill them, I don't want to live in a society like that.

    Returning to the Bulger killers, if they fart menacingly in the next half-decade they are going to be back inside. After that, they'll still be monitored at least every three weeks for many decades. If they ever get stopped by the police for anything, it will be logged, noted, and acted upon. They have either convineced the psychologists they are rehabilitated, or are rehabilitated, and given they present very little danger it seems fit they should be re-intergrated into society if possible, as if they are shaming at some point they will trip themselves up, and be back inside, and it is almost certain tht would be before they did anything wrong. I can't remember the last time a murderer, released at the end of their sentence on licence, re-offended.

    With people who have something wrong with them, as distinct from those who did not realise what they were doing in the way that you or I would, but have a mental imbalence or sickness continuing to affect them, it is more difficult to guarantee safety. Compulsory drug treatment for sex offenders or the extremely violent is a possible alternative to permanant incarseration.

    And then you have the evil ones. The bad, not mad. I don't think these two little boys fell into that catagory, not whenthey did it, not now. You can lock them (the bad ones) up, as they deserve confinement for the rest of their lives as they would act in a similarly sociopathic fashion if allowed to go free. Serial killers, war criminals. People who deserve our contempt and rage far more than two screwed up kids.

    Are those of you foaming at the mouth about these two kids as strident in your demands that Milosovich be tried in The Hauge? I sincerely hope you know who Milosovich is, as otherwise your rage looks ill-informed.

    In short, these boys, however awful the thing they did was, are very unlikely to ever do anything like that again. There is no point in punishing someone for something they aren't that responsible for.

    I am surprised that so little comment has been made about Jamie's mother. She has been through hell, and is still there, and is obviously in need of a good psychiatrist as her statements to the press ring with all the signs of someone who has still to finish grieving properly. I am not saying she could 'get over it', as I don't pressume to say you can, but she is not 'living with it', and is showing all the signs of paranoia, assuming that her survivng children are under threat and that the murderers of her son would want to contact her. That is so obviously barking mad. Her former husband should be commended for the restraint he is showing.

    But the press print it, report it, as they, despite their posturing, are just looking to stick something on the cover that sells more issues, or somehing in the headlines that stops people flipping the channel. They don't care that the woman is so traumatised she is menatlly ill. They don't care that they are virtually party to precuring vigilante killers. They just want the ching ching of ad revenue.

    So, persecute two people, victims of their childhood, victims of a bad call by the trial judge, who have been punished and rehabilitated for and from the awful thing they did, and who would, given the chance, in all probability would drop into society without leaving any ripples and never do harm again.

    Persecute them all you like, rant and rage. But don't try to make out it is the right thing to do. It's just revenge, not noble, not right, just revenge.

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo
    ... If their only exposure was to TV and video games then they had been desensitised to it as well so even the concept of wrong and right may have been affected. These boys were just at the borderline of being able to always distinguish fantasy from reality also.

    Now that may sound like psychobabble to some, but it is according to allresearch on childhood development.

    Sorry Jan, not all researchers agree with you. While many researchers go along this line of argument...there are also many who view watching TV and playing video games as having no effect at all, they would argue that it is the family environment that has the influence. I do not have the time now to give you names and quotes, if you want me too i will....i do remember Aston University (uk) doing some research in this area and came to the conclusion that TV and video games have little or no effect at all.

    One point that you seem to not understand when it comes to these two boys, is that the fact they watched these videos was all media hype. One newspaper The Sun had found out that the weekend before the murder Robert Thompsons absent father rented out the Child's Play film. What they failed to disclose was that child had not spent any time with his absent father for four weeks prior to the murder.

    Many children watch videos and play these games but it doesn't have an effect on their knowledge of right and wrong. So what makes these two different?

    Why as a society do we have to try and explain away the reasons behind what these two have done?...Why do we have to look for excuses for them?...As a society it seems to me that we cannot comprehend why people commit such evil crimes, we always have to look for a reason. These two should have been locked away for the rest of their lives.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Abaddon,

    Most people here in the UK, where it happened, feel that the killer should eventualy be released and start again in the outside world.
    The question is whether this is the right time.

    If they were to stay in confinement until they were 25, they would have the opportunity to continue thir rehabilitation as adults. They would be safer than they are going to be at present. They would be older and better equipped to face the world if they were older, and public oppinion would soften, if they were seen to have served some time in prison, as adults, for the sadistic torture and murder of a 2year old.

    You use very emotive language and show a great strength of feeling. These personality traits indicate that you would not show the same restraint as the father of the murdered child is showing, if you were in his position or the tolerance that you are demanding the people on this board should show.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    trevor; I don't have to show restraint, I'm not their father, I can express my opinion freely and emotively, just as the 'kill 'em/lock 'em up' lobbey are doing. Good for the goose, good for the gander. Or are you going to tell the 'lock 'em up' lobbey to be less emotive too?

    If they stayed in the system until 25 they would have to have a special institution built for them, or go to a normal jail, or be housed in a secure psychiatric unit.

    The first option is ridiculous, the second is a sure-fire way to ensure they never re-intergrate into society, and have the years of rehabilitation undone. Rehabilitation in prison... not in England mate! And safe in prison?? Be real - they would be targets in prison. If you think spending 6-7 more years in an institution would make them better equipped to face the world I really have to laugh. The third option would probably result in them developing mental diseases. The former Soviet regieme discovered only the very finest minds could survive more than 18 month being locked up with nutters before becoming nutters.

    And they, more to the point really, have served their sentence. To treat them differently just because the judge at the trial let their names be released to the public (which is what it boils down to) would be a breach of their human rights. You are suggesting basing their sentence on a political basis, not on a judicial basis. That would be wrong.

    Obviously they did wrong, but what kind of school-yard logic makes two wrongs a right?

    dig; You say;

    Why do we have to look for excuses for them?...As a society it seems to me that we cannot comprehend why people commit such evil crimes, we always have to look for a reason. These two should have been locked away for the rest of their lives.

    Sorry to tell you this, but if you'd grown up in Jon Venables shoes, you would have probably done the same thing.

    But, you seem incapable of accepting the fact that these little boys were as human as you or I. It obviously disturbs you, as it doesn't fit in the nice safe box of humanity.

    Do you think the US soldiers who killed women and children under orders from their superiors in Vietnam were any less human than you or I?

    I think you would have very likely pulled the trigger, just like those men did, as you would have been in their shoes, would have been through what they had been through, and would be as conditioned as they were. I'd have probably done the same.

    Do you think that the residents of Rwanda who were on the attacking side are inferior to you? That you would, given their educational standard and background, have resisted the propoganda and been immune to taking part in the atrocities?

    We'll never know, but to assume that you would not have done anything wrong in those circumstances is just a big, fat assumption. Both you and I would have probably been waving meat cleavers.

    What about Germany in World War II? I suppose you'd have been trying to overthrow Hitler, rather than looking the other way as yet another one of those trains rattled by. I suppose you would have stood up to your principles, staring down the firing squad as they shoot you and your family down like dogs.

    That's yet another assumption. You don't know. You think (or by your advocacy of it imply) that you're better than these people you want locked up for life, but you don't know because you have never lived their lives.

    So I just can't take your viewpoint seriously. Your attitude carries with it the implict assumption that 'you' and 'normal people' are different to these boys. And there is no proof of that, indeed there is every proof that normal people can do the most horrible things if in the right (or wrong) environment.

    Now, if you were to say Pol Pot, or Milosovich, or Hitler, or Dahlmer, or that mad Doctor in England who killed old people, I would agree, they ARE different.

    But punishing two people who are far closer to you and I than you'd like to admit, is to in essence make yourself feel better with a big 'them and us' sign.

    Well, I don't buy it. It is too neat, too simple, too convenient.

    We are humans, and we can do the most dreadful things and the most wonderful things, and it is only the sustained practice of terrible things by someone of mental and chronological competance that can remove someones 'humanity'.

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    As usual, Abaddon, if you can't dazzle with brains, you baffle with bullshit. I'm not going to sit here and write five pages of argumentation just because YOU talk too much and say so little. I'll just go "fuck off" with most everybody else because I don't agree with you. You and JanG can go feed milk and cookies to the good little kiddies who are just "misunderstood" until they kill their next innocent victim.

    RCat

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    RCat,

    You don't seem to like posts that talk about the psychology of humans. What Abaddon wrote is correct. Those boys are not much different than you and I. As the saying goes, there but for the grace of God go I.

    There are easy answers, but they often aren't correct answers. The correct answers sometimes involve messy complications, or hit too close to home. The correct answers often require a lot of thought, instead of a ready answer. The correct answers sometimes don't fully cover the questions. Life is rarely black and white, but many shades of grey.

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    Seeker,

    With all due respect, I read every word Abaddon wrote. I do believe I owe him that much respect. It's considerably more than he shows the rest of us when he tell us that if we don't agree with his reasoning or lack of it, we can all just "fuck off". THAT's what I don't like.

    RCat

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    My misunderstanding, RCat; I apologize.

    I thought yours was yet another slam on the psychology of these events, such as the abuse JanG has taken in this thread for no legitimate reason that I can see.

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    Nope, I still say if y'all think the boys should be released, and you think they're going to be pillars of society, let them move next door to you and play with your children and grandchildren. I believe differently, and that is my right. I'll go fuck off now.

    RCat

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