Outoftheorg:
Ain't that the truth brother - hehe
Proof of Jesus existance
by Jew 86 Replies latest watchtower bible
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myelaine
Jew,
Proverbs 29:18
Where there is revelation, the people cast off restraint: But happy is he who keeps the law.
that being:
1. There is one true God, regardless of his name.
2. Love the true God with all of your heart and mind and body.
3. Love your brother as you love God. -
frankiespeakin
K152,
I was also granted by the Spirit to share this with you, Jew. Jew, if you are truly serious about finding out, you really have to look at your intentions behind WHY you are asking, WHY you want to know. Are you asking because you "want" to believe? If so, WHY do you want to believe? Are you asking so that you can choose NOT to believe? If so, WHY do you wish not to believe? You really have to look at your intents behind why you ask because your intents, your heart, can DETERMINE for you "what" you will believe and "what" you will not believe REGARDLESS of what evidence or "proof" is set before you.
The spirit sure has a lot of questions. What a dead give away that it can't be God. I think God if he is all knowing wouldn't be asking questions but instead giving answer. A God who asked that many questions could hardly inspire confidence,, because he's the one that need help understanding.
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kes152
Dearest frankie,
Peace be with you.
The Spirit asks Jew to ask himself those questions and for him to really "search" his heart about his intentions. Why does the Spirit do this? Because for Jew "specifically," his intentions will affect what he believes and what he doesn't believe and the Spirit knows that he, in his heart, is unaware of this. So the Spirit helps him to "see" (because the Spirit forces no one to do anything, but respects our free will) this by directing him to ask himself these questions.
Aaron
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itsallgoodnow
Proverbs 29:18
Where there is revelation, the people cast off restraint: But happy is he who keeps the law.
Because nothing proves Jesus existed better than a random scripture from Proverbs, or any scripture in the bible, for that matter.
1. There is one true God, regardless of his name.
2. Love the true God with all of your heart and mind and body.
3. Love your brother as you love God.Great work. Now all we need is to prove god's existence. who's up for it?
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zen nudist
great resource.
After leaving JWs I first read WHO WROTE THE BIBLE and discovered things that I had noticed while a JW but had always been slapped away from persuing, under pain of apostacy and such....
but it supprized me how much there was showing that Jesus was made up from older myths.
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toreador
YEP, I READ ALL OF THE COMMENTS AND CHALLENGES AND THE WELL RESEARCHED REPLIES.
NOW I FIND MYSELF JUST AS CONFUSED AND CONFLICTED ABOUT ALL THIS, AS I WAS AT THE START.
THIS HAPPENS EVERY TIME I TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT ALL THESE RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND TEACHINGS ARE ALL ABOUT.
I KEEP HOPING THAT GOD/JESUS WILL DO A REVALATION ON ME.
SOME SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE THAT WILL GIVE ME THE ANSWERS AND ALL I GET IS ANOTHER GOD DAMNED HEADACHE.
Outoftheorg
Ditto
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hooberus
Historic evidence for the crucuifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate: The church historian Luke (early 60's AD) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.
"Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene," Luke 3:1
"Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them. But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required." Luke 23:20-24
Justin Martyr (wrote 147 A.D.) appealed to a document apparenty extant in his day called the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" as a historical reference for the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate. Such a document would have been written near the time of the event (AD 32-33).
Justin Martyr (The First Apology of Justin)
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967
Chapter XXXV.-Other Fulfilled Prophecies.
And how Christ after He was born was to escape the notice of other men until He grew to man's estate, which also came to pass, hear what was foretold regarding this. There are the following predictions: 67 -"Unto us a child is born, and unto us a young man is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders; " 68 which is significant of the power of the cross, for to it, when He was crucified, He applied His shoulders, as shall be more clearly made out in the ensuing discourse. And again the same prophet Isaiah, being inspired by the prophetic Spirit, said, "I have spread out my hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good. They now ask of me judgment, and dare to draw near to God." 69 And again in other words, through another prophet, He says, "They pierced My hands and My feet, and for My vesture they cast lots." 70 And indeed David, the king and prophet, who uttered these things, suffered none of them; but Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him, and denying that He was the Christ. And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat, and said, Judge us. And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. 71 And we will cite the prophetic utterances of another prophet, Zephaniah, 72 to the effect that He was foretold expressly as to sit upon the foal of an ass and to enter Jerusalem. The words are these: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." 73
71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope.
Jewish historian Josephus (born AD 37 wrote AD 93-94) recorded that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person (Many scholars dispute the authenticity of the complete passage, though the underlined part below is commonly accepted).
Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews book XVIII)
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Additional information: http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_JOS.html
Roman Historian Tacitus (born AD 55 wrote AD 115 Annals 15.44. ) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical Person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.
"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."
Additional information: http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TC.html
Also, it should be noted that the death of Jesus Christ follows virtually exactly the manner in which Romans such as Pilate performed crucifixion. This fact gives support to the historicity of the account. Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762"There were various methods of performing the execution. Usually, the condemned man, after being whipped, or "scourged," dragged the crossbeam of his cross to the place of punishment, where the upright shaft was already fixed in the ground. Stripped of his clothing either then or earlier at his scourging, he was bound fast with outstrectched arms to the crossbeam or nailed firmly to it through the wrists. The crossbeam was then raised high against the upright shaft and made fast to it about 9 to 12 feet (approximately 3 metres) from the ground. Next, the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft. A ledge inserted about halfway up the upright shaft gave some support to the body; evidence for a similar ledge for the feet is rare and late. Over the criminal's head was placed a notice stating his name and his crime. Death, apparently caused bu exhaustion or by heart failure, could be hastened by shattering the legs (crurifragium) with an iron club, so that shock and asphyxiation soon nded his life."
The same arcticle later says (with no qualifying statement as to the historicity of the crucifixion): "in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion."
New Catholic Encyclopedia p. 485
From this form of execution was developed crucifixion in the strict sene, whereby the outstreatched arms of the victim were tied or nailed to a crossbeam ( patibulum ), which was then laid in a groove across the top or suspended by means of a notch in the side of an upright stake that was always left in position at the site of execution.
The Romans considered crucifixion so shameful a penalty that it could not be inflicted on Roman citizens. Roman crucifixion was always preceded by a scourging of the victim at the place of judgement. Then the criminal, still naked after the scourging, was made to carry his own cross (i.e.crossbeam) to the place of execution, where he was exposed to public ridicule and death. On top of the upright stake was fastened a placard with the culprit's name and a statement of the crime fror which he was being put to death. The full weight of the body hanging by the arms would prevent the right functioning of the lung muscles and so cause death by asphixiation after not too long a time. Therefore, to prolong the agony of the victim, support was given to his body by a kind of seat block and by binding or nailing his feet to the cross. Death could later be hastened by breaking the victim's legs (crurufragium), so that shock and asphyxiation soon ended his life. Sometimes, however, the side and heart would be pierced by a spear to cause immediate death.
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hooberus
Julius Africanus writing in 221 AD (Chronography) gives a reference from an ancient historian named Thallus (AD 52?). Africanus seems to quote Thallus in a discussion about the darkness that followed the crucifixion of Christ. This may be a very early (Ad 52?) historical citation of the darkness at the crucifixion described in Luke 23:44-45.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-50.htm#P2367_668991
XVIII. 47
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On the Circumstances Connected with Our Saviour's Passion and His Life-Giving Resurrection.
1. As to His works severally, and His cures effected upon body and soul, and the mysteries of His doctrine, and the resurrection from the dead, these have been most authoritatively set forth by His disciples and apostles before us. On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour fails on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun? Let that opinion pass however; let it carry the majority with it; and let this portent of the world be deemed an eclipse of the sun, like others a portent only to the eye. 48 Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? Surely no such event as this is recorded for a long period. But it was a darkness induced by God, because the Lord happened then to suffer. And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is completed at this time.
For additional information:
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hooberus
Jewish historian Josephus (born AD 37 wrote AD 93)
Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Book XX
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-20.htm
CHAPTER 9.
CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.
1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23) who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
The following is from the research of Mike Liconia:
http://www.risenjesus.com/articles/index.asp?pagea=acharya-s
Jewish scholar, Louis Feldman of Yeshiva University and perhaps the most prominent expert on Josephus . . .
Feldman writes, "The passage about James [Antiquities Book 20, Sections 197-200] has generally been accepted as authentic."(81) Elsewhere he mentions this text and "the authenticity of which has been almost universally acknowledged."(82) Another Jewish scholar, Zvi Baras, states that this passage "is considered authentic by most scholars."(83) Yamauchi comments, "Few scholars have questioned the genuineness of this passage."(84) Van Voorst writes, "The overwhelming majority of scholars holds that the words 'the brother of Jesus called Christ' are authentic, as is the entire passage in which it is found."