Does Belgium Have it Right About JWs?

by ezekiel3 106 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  outbutnotdown

  Czar,

  I respect your views on having open forums and such about religion and their respective negative consequences as well. I'm not disagreeing with you on that....... it is a great idea.

  I would like to add another point, though. Little children, for example, are not able to have this freedom to the information and are therefore brought up believing that this negative mind-control is good and normal. Therefore, I believe that we should also have PREVENTATIVE measures to disallow people, especially children, from being reared in a JW type of religion.

  I know, for myself personally, I continue to have to de-program myself from some of those negative thought processes that have been put there by that religion, and despite knowing that Im doing better and better, I still think I would have preferred to have a more "open-minded" upbringing.

  B.
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  Xena

  Xena: What about those JW teenagers/children who shun you, do they have a choice in what they believe?

  Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to enslave others in a doctrine by deceptive recruiting and mind control. Study up on cults and get back to me with a qualified opinion

  Ok then, since you're the qualified one. What DOES freedom of religion mean and what religions would you endorse?
• 

  heathen

  obnd --- I do not lead a delisional life . I don't feel I owe anybody an apology and there is no dr. appointment . My opinion is as valid as yours we can agree to disagree and that's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned .

  I still strongly protest the logic that dictates that just because JWS are disfuntional means that somebody else has to teach their children some sort of canned government regulated form of religion . Parents IMO have the right to teach their children what they feel is right but if it comes to something like blood transfusions I think dr.s should have the legal right to do what needs to be done to save a childs life because I don't think children are qualified to be responsible for religious dogma that interferes with their health .
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  czarofmischief

  I respect your views on having open forums and such about religion and their respective negative consequences as well. I'm not disagreeing with you on that....... it is a great idea.j

  Um it's called the internet... I think Al Gore invented it... smile, you're on candid camera...

  I would like to add another point, though. Little children, for example, are not able to have this freedom to the information and are therefore brought up believing that this negative mind-control is good and normal. Therefore, I believe that we should also have PREVENTATIVE measures to disallow people, especially children, from being reared in a JW type of religion.

  Our debate over childhood access to the internet aside (it is almost universal and free and unstoppable). I want to first state that I know you are speaking from the best of intentions. You want to "save the children." Wonderful idea. I send them 10 bucks a month. But remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

  LIttle children are often scarred from having to overcome their parents' career decisions for them. In fact, more kids are hurt by interfering parents than by religion. Should we ban that too? How will you do that? How will you pay for it?

  the fact is, free people are free to make decisions we don't like. That's the whole point. We just have to put up with it. Look at it objectively: dub kids are not more unhappy than other kids. Dub parents are usually kind, loving people just like everybody else. The abuse problem IS a problem, but it is a function of the structure of the borg, not the average dubbie. Ignorance is bliss, for a whle. Eventually, the dissonance between what they are taught and what they believe is going to lead them to Google "Jehovah's Witnesses" and whatever questions they have will be answered. And then they can make a choice. Some do it when they are teens, some earlier, and some like me don't catch on until our early twenties.

  I was raised the borg - 22 years behind the microphone - and escaping HURT... a LOT... but it made me who I am and I cannot say that I would change a thing. It isn't the challenges in life that crush us, it is our own choice to overcome or submit that shapes who we are.

  And while protecting children is always a good motive, it isn't practical in application - we'd wind up treating adults like children because they aren't making the choices WE would make.

  CZAR
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  ezekiel3

  Xena: Here are a couple of quotes:
  

  "One of my purposes in writing about them [methods of mind control] is to counter the tendency in the culture to deny that sush things exist; another purpose is to demystify them" - Robert J Lifton, M.D. (psychiatrist who studied Chinese Communist brainwashing of prisoners during 1950's) Cults: Religious Totalism and Civil Liberties

  Methods of operation are what make cults destructive. How a group recruits and what happens during membership determine whether or not it respects people's rights to choose for themselves what they what to believe. If deception, hypnosis, and other mind control techniques are being used to recruit and control followers, then people's rights are being infringed upon. - Steven Hassan, M.D. (psycologist specializing in exit-counseling for cult-member and former Moonies leader) Combatting Cult Mind Control

  There are some things I learned about "cult practices" that opened my mind to the world around me:
  

  1. Without awareness of mind control techniques, anyone is susceptable to recruitment or enslavement by a cult.
  2. A destructive cult does not have to be religious. (My experience with two major multi-level marketing groups corresponded closely with JW methods).
  3. Belief is different than practice. If a religious group invites potential members with full disclosure of their leadership and practices (in other words "doesn't have to hide anything"), great. If a member of a religion is free to leave without punishment or persecution, great.

  Mind control is everywhere. It is common in advertising, in the US military (especially boot camp), and in many "mainstream" religions. I had no idea I was a victim of mind control as a JW youth and adult. But I was a victim, I had no "freedom of religion" because I was enslaved by a cult who uses "freedom of religion" as a shield for their control.

  Please, to anyone reading this that may disagree that "freedom of religion" includes destructive cults, please research and study up. JWD has a whole "Best Of..." devoted to Cults and JWs. And keep an open mind - a good sign that you are not a victim of mind control as well.
• 

  outbutnotdown

  Czar,

  Good points again. I went through some weird sh*t when I was younger, mostly based on the fact that my parents, who lacked in skills that enabled good emotional upbringing for their children, seemed to have this belief that they were "special" people and therefore never seemed to question, (or were never open-minded enough to realize it), the fact that they could be even better parents.

  HOWEVER, much like yourself, I wouldn't change a thing about it, not because I don't have some things that make me less than perfect, but, actually because I am ecstatic that I actually realize that I can become more enlightened, and I don't get in trouble for "finding this new light" before some religious hierarchy says it's OK to follow THEIR new light.

  I still stick to my point about the fact that I am not against the gov't pointing out concerns about specific religions, as long as it is done with as much objectivity as possible and with, (like you said), the best of intentions. And yes, I do know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions but the road to happiness/heaven is also. I am the youngest of four kids and I see the anger, hatred, and just emptiness in my older siblings who are all still JW's........and I say that not to insult them, but just to state a fact...............but as much as I respect their freedom of religion, I also know that I was in their shoes before and I firmly believe that they would like it better out here.

  B.
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  Xena

  Mind control is everywhere. It is common in advertising, in the US military (especially boot camp), and in many "mainstream" religions.

  So where do you draw the line? JW's? Catholics? Pentecostal? Which teachings do we decide are detimental to children? Shunning? Hellfire? Speaking in tongues?

  And who gets to decide for us?
• 

  outbutnotdown

  Xena,

  IMO, the worst part of living in a high-control religion or even in a high-control and judgemental family, such as if we were raised by prejudiced parents, is not being able to use our God-given (or inate) abilities to decipher what is good and bad, to speak in pretty basic terms.

  In answer to your question, where we should draw the line is when a religion, for example, restricts these in-born abilities. As humans, it stunts our growth spiritually and emotionally when this happens, which in turn causes us to be the negative, close-minded people that is unhealthy for society to have around.

  I have used this quote a few times before, but I will use it again, because it's a goody!!!!!!! On the back of Crisis of Conscience, when speaking about the negative effects of the JW religion, Kim Kimmons says:

  "It jolts the conscience.... a warning of what can happen when an individual turns his God-given right of decision-making over to an organization."

  To me, that is the entire answer............ when an organization prevents us from making decisions that are natural and healthy........ THERE'S A BIG PROBLEM!!!!!!!

  B.
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  Vita Nuova

  What a novel idea! Instead of abandoning itself to the idea that establishing some broad ideal of freedom should be the ultimate aim of government, the Belgium government has opted to erect bulwarks against indisputably pervasive organizations. To think that Belgium has actually reserved some authority to guide the so-called "private" lives of its citizens! This I like.
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  ezekiel3

  Xena I am going to make the plain and simple for you:

  Methods and Practice is where you draw the line.

  You mention Catholics, today a harmless major religion. Catholics believe the same basic things as they did 500 years ago. But 500 years ago, if you refused to convert they would kill you. You would be forced off to war if the Pope saw fit. And you would be forced to renounce scientific facts if it conflicted with the church's doctrine.

  So is the Catholic church a dangerous cult? Not today. Members come and go as they please, Catholics believe different things, and John Kerry even supports abortion.

  What is the difference? Methods and Practice. The belief is not effected.

  There are methods and practices that are identified with mind control. These methods and practices are what should be outlawed. Not the beliefs. Do you see the difference?

  Another example: the US military. It is not difficult to see that the military practices mind control when indoctrinating new recruits. Hopefully those who volunteer understand that going in. There is full disclosure that you are "property of the US" when you join.

  But the modern US military is a cake walk compared to ancient Sparta. Babies would be killed if they phyiscally defective. Boys would be removed from their mothers at age 7 to be raised in a military barracks and taught deprivation in order to survive any physical challenge. We are way beyond the draft here. Sparta was a nation under mind and body control for the purpose of military strength.

  Do you think Spartan children had any choice? No doubt they craved to be military heros, but they didn't know any better. They were victims of mind control. Do you see that I am not arguing war or the reasons for war? I am exposing the methods and practices for recruiting warriors.

  So please, believe that Jesus returned in 1914 and that only 144,000 will go to heaven. Believe you have the only religion that God has approved. I have no problem with your beliefs! But if you are going to get your children and others to believe the same by using dangerous methods and practices, that's were you draw the line.