Does Belgium Have it Right About JWs?

by ezekiel3 106 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Xena
    Xena

    Just a bit more information regarding the religious situation in Belgium...

    http://www.hrwf.net/html/human_rights_in_belgium_2002.html

    Religious intolerance

    The relationship between the state and religions in Belgium is historically rooted in the principle of recognition and non-recognition of religions. However, recognition criteria were never enshrined in the constitution, in decrees or in laws. Six religions (Catholicism, Protestantism, Anglicanism, Judaism, Islam and Orthodoxy) and secular humanism (laïcité) are currently recognised by the state. They enjoy facilities and advantages that are denied to all other religious groups.

    • The state finances only recognised religions. State subsidies are provided by all taxpayers, including those who profess a non-recognised religion or who do not adhere to any religion or belief system. This system is not equitable in so far as taxpayers are unable to prohibit the state from using their income tax to finance religions and secular humanism that are openly opposed to non-recognised minority religions.
    • The state has put in place mechanisms and agencies - Parliamentary Enquiry Commission on Sects, Centre for Information and Advice on Harmful Sectarian Organizations and Inter-Ministerial Coordination Agency of Fight against Harmful Sectarian Organizations - to identify so-called ?harmful cults? (bad religions), warn the public and fight against them.

    The Centre comprises twelve members and twelve substitutes. The recruiting method of these members is very far from guaranteeing their impartiality. Indeed, half of the members are nominated by the Council of Ministers for approval by the House of Representatives, while the other half is directly appointed by the House of Representatives. Representatives of political parties, the Catholic Church, various anti-sect movements and ideologies are to be found among the members. The independence of the Sect Observatory is also scarcely guaranteed as it is under the authority of the Ministry of Justice. The Observatory keeps silent about religious discrimination committed by public authorities and is careful not to criticise ministers or mayors who deny access to public halls to groups, which act legally, on the grounds that they are on an alleged list of sects suspected of being harmful.[ii]

    • The Anthroposophic Society has sued the Belgian state arguing that the law creating the Centre for Information and Advice as well as the Inter-Ministerial Coordination Agency is anti-constitutional. The highest domestic instance, the Court of Arbitration, dismissed the case. The European Court in Strasbourg declared the case non-admissible in September 2002.

    · The distribution of printed material, including religious and philosophical writings, is forbidden by municipal decrees in certain parts of Brussels and of other towns: near schools, (Christian) churches (but strangely enough not synagogues, mosques or any other non-Christian places of worship), military barracks, etc. Other regulations provide that any distribution of printed material, even free of charge and on a small scale, may only be carried out with the written approval of the mayor and after the payment of a small fee.

    · Some Belgian municipalities have made it a requirement for candidates for positions as civil servants to swear a statement that they do not belong to a harmful sectarian organisation.

    · Renting public places for meetings is often denied to religious associations mentioned on the official list of 189 movements suspected of being ?harmful sectarian organizations?.

    • The tax department has denied the Japanese religious group Sukyo Mahikari an exemption from property tax on its place of worship on the grounds that it is on the parliamentary of sects suspected of being harmful . A procedure of appeal was started in 1998 and is still pending.
    • In divorce cases, courts sometimes deny the child custody to the parent who is affiliated to a non-recognised religion (Pentecostal Church, Jehovah?s Witness, Church of Scientology, Sahaja Yoga, Raelian movement, etc.) on the grounds that it is a harmful cult. A number of courts also grant visitation rights to the non-custodial parent who is a member of a so-called ?cult? on the condition that he or she does not expose his or her children to the teachings or lifestyle of that religious group during visits.
    • The Foreign Workers? Act of 1999 requires from non-recognised religions that foreign missionaries obtain work permits before applying for a visa to enter the country for religious work. On many occasions, Belgian consulates have failed to answer such applications and have in this way denied American Mormon, Adventist and Pentecostal missionaries? access to the Belgian territory. In February 2002, US female Pentecostals were arrested, jailed and deported on the grounds that they were working without a work permit, although they were unpaid volunteers. The same act provides that foreign clerics and missionaries are not submitted to that regulation.

    · In public schools under the authority of the French community, Jehovah's Witnesses complain that their children have no other choice than to attend religious or (allegedly neutral) ethics classes the contents of which, they say, conflict with their beliefs. In the Flemish community, the children of Jehovah?s Witnesses are exempted from such classes.

    • Chaplains of recognised religions and moral advisers of secular humanism have officially access to prisons, detention centres for asylum-seekers, hospitals, the armed forces, etc. Non-recognised religions may not send chaplains to such institutions.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_belgi.htm

    The Belgian Parliamentary Commission on Cults submitted a report to the Belgian Parliament in 1997. It identified 189 churches, sects, other religious groups, and para-church organizations as "cults". The list covered a very wide range of religious groups, including the Amish Mission in Belgium, 2 Buddhist groups, Opus Dei (a lay Roman Catholic group), 21 Evangelical Christian denominations, Quakers, and Satanists.

    The Commission appeared to have adopted the fears of many Belgians with regards to small or emerging religious groups. Pastor Jules Lambotte, head of the Amish Mission commented: "In the minds of the population, all the churches which do not belong to the United Protestant Church of Belgium, officially recognized by the state, are cults." Samuel Liberek, head of the Association of Protestant Evangelical Churches in Belgium commented: "We were not very happy to see that our churches, about 50 in all, had been listed as cults. We were never asked to take part in the parliamentary hearing, and didn't know that we had been filed by the police or the intelligence services or that some of our former members might have complained about us at the Commission." Two Buddhist institutes and the Roman Catholic church complained as well.

    The Belgian Parliament adopted the report's conclusions and recommendations. However, it neither approved nor disapproved of the list of "cults". Some of the religious groups that were listed were:

    bulletAmish Mission in Belgium
    bulletAssemblies of God
    bulletAssociation of Flemish Pentecostal Assemblies
    bulletBethel Pentecostal Church
    bulletCalvary Christian Center
    bulletCelestian Church of Christ
    bulletCharismatic Revival
    bulletChristian Church
    bulletChrist's Church in Brussels
    bulletDarbyst Brothers' Assemblies
    bulletEvangelical Christians
    bulletEvangelical Free Church
    bulletFree Evangelical Pentecostal Assemblies
    bulletHasidic Judaism
    bulletInternational Church of Christ
    bulletPentecostal Evangelical Action
    bulletReformed Evangelism Center (in Essen)
    bulletReligious Society of Friends (Quakers)
    bullet4 Roman Catholic organizations, including Opus Dei
    bulletSeventh-Day Adventists
    bulletUniversal Church of God
    bulletUniversal Church of the Kingdom of God
    bulletYWCA

    The Quakers complained to the government at the Deputy Prime Minister level about their inclusion on the list. They pointed out their their humanitarian aid programs in post World War II Europe, and requesting to see the evidence against them which had been presented to the Parliamentary Commission by the federal police in a closed session. They were unsuccessful.

    This government panic about cults appears to have their foundation in the anti-cult and counter-cult movements in the US and Canada, which started in the early 1970's, peaked in the 1980's and is now in rapid decline. Like many religious and psychological hoaxes , this movement has been exported to Europe, Russia and a number of English speaking countries. It was given a major boost in credibility by the mass murder and suicide by members of the Solar Temple destructive cult. The counter-cult movement has succeeded in transferring the public's abhorrence of doomsday cults against all small or new religious groups - both destructive cults and benign groups. All countries without a wall of separation between church and state are succeptable to this type of public and governmental panic

    This effects more than just the JW's....
  • Panda
    Panda

    Xena, Thank you for the list and explanations for the Flemish court rulings. WOW I was surprized to see YMCA on the list. But then again I suppose the individual judge will decide whether or not to rule in favor of the non-cult member.

    Historically isn't every religion a cult?

  • Panda
    Panda

    Whoa Pole...yikes talk about twisting! You even twist your own remarks...not cunning at all. Europeans know all about America from the movies, LOL. Oh man I needed that laugh. Even Americans know movies are FICTION. And I doubt other Europeans want to put themselves into the movie culture category. But if that's how you got your education of American history I am sympathetic.

    "I only objected to the idea that all countries should adopt the American constitution." Untrue. Please reread your post. " What I got as a reply was a pile of nationalist aforismic comments pretending to be clever observations on international policy." No, I never pretend clever observations. My clever observations are genuine. " I also got intimidated and misquoted." You were intimidated by my useless comments?

    So, Pole does Belgium have it right about JW's?

  • Pole
    Pole

    Panda,

    Whoa Pole...yikes talk about twisting! You even twist your own remarks...not cunning at all. Europeans know all about America from the movies, LOL. Oh man I needed that laugh. Even Americans know movies are FICTION. And I doubt other Europeans want to put themselves into the movie culture category. But if that's how you got your education of American history I am sympathetic.

    ??? You break my heart! How can you be so unfair about my posts? Not again???!!!

    Here is my remark again:

    First of all I studied American culture and history among other things. Secondly you should know that the cultural transfer between America and Europe is one-directional. the average European knows much more about the American culture (even f it's folk knowledge from Hollywood movies), than vice versa.

    There are two different points here. Plus, I've explicitly disclaimed folk knowledge.

    I can't see how you were able to conclude that I got my education from Hollywood movies??? As it happens, I took 3 two-semester university courses in American Literature (starting with Winthrop, John Smith, Hawthorne, Thoreau, and Emerson and finishing in the late 1980s) and American Culture. Silly as it sounds, I even learnt big chunks of your literature and early political writing by heart.

    Of course, this still doesn't prove I can't be an idiot, but it should give you an idea of what I think of your conclusion about my supposedly Hollywood-based education in AM culture.

    Come on Panda, you must realize that you're being unfair...


    ... back to the original question.

    Does Belgium have it right?

    The kind of restrictions they have implemented are acceptable and apparently based on some research and monitoring. The situation there can't be compared to that in Russia, because the decisions in Russia were not preceded by any research - they were chiefly political.

    The Belgian Government institutions simply know that something is wrong with the JWs. We know it too.

    So I accept it as the right of the citizens of Belgium. I don't want them to accept the Polish approach to this problem. I also think Belgium is no less democratic by implementing those solutions. There is no single best democratic model in this world.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think czar made another good point about the europeans coming here to america trying to buy influence in the government . They not only want a free trade agreement but they want to control the laws governing free trade .Not just the europeans but also the asians . Many of these countries use slave and or child labor to keep costs down so consequently many american companies are suffering or out sourcing leaving a huge trade dept that is putting the hurt on middle class workers. Thanks to canada and mexico we now have even more trouble keeping jobs in the US because of the nafta agreement .

    AFA the gun control issue , I have heard that in europe there is an illegal market and millions of illegal guns . Just because you own a gun does not make you a criminal . I do think people need to observe the gun safety manual better than they do especially when you have children . I think making parents or gun owners responsible for deaths that occur from leaving guns loaded and near children to where they use them to kill others or themselves accountable, will make a difference .

    AFA the drug issue is concerned there doesn't seem to be enough jail space to keep all the drug dealers in prison and costs a fortune to the tax payer . As the libertarians say " possession is a victimless crime." I think more people die from alchohol abuse anyway . The only drugs I have a serious issue with myself are heroine , and various other mind altering drugs that make people loose control of their actions .

    I never said I was interested in other countries becoming the 51st state but merely setting up a represetative republic similar to the US and self governing . I am not all that happy with the things the US government does but ( in fact I think most politicans are crooks ) but at least you can vote for people who are of like mind .

  • Pole
    Pole

    Heathen,

    I think czar made another good point about the europeans coming here to america trying to buy influence in the government . They not only want a free trade agreement but they want to control the laws governing free trade .Thanks to canada and mexico we now have even more trouble keeping jobs in the US because of the nafta agreement .

    I think you guys must believe in conspirational theories. Do you guys seriously believe that most Europeans and Asians go to the US with the main purpose of ruining your economy and political system?

    Not just the europeans but also the asians . Many of these countries use slave and or child labor to keep costs down so consequently many american companies are suffering or out sourcing leaving a huge trade dept that is putting the hurt on middle class workers.

    I hope you are not saying that Europeans use child labour.

    Thanks to canada and mexico we now have even more trouble keeping jobs in the US because of the nafta agreement .

    Ok, so Canada and Mexico are also plotting against you?

    I never said I was interested in other countries becoming the 51st state but merely setting up a represetative republic similar to the US and self governing . I am not all that happy with the things the US government does but ( in fact I think most politicans are crooks ) but at least you can vote for people who are of like mind .

    How is that different form European democracies, and why exactly would you like to replace them with the US one?

  • Xena
    Xena

    Again, this effects more than the Jehovah Witness religion and in my opinion shows a gross lack of religious tolerance that I find personally disturbing.

    In the minds of the population, all the churches which do not belong to the United Protestant Church of Belgium, officially recognized by the state, are cults."

  • outbutnotdown
    outbutnotdown

    Czar,

    You seem to see things in absolutes. Freedom of religion does not have to be altered by banning the more extreme religions. Somebody else made a good point, that maybe they should just tax certain ones. I mean think about it; the JW's would love it..... look at how we are being persecuted now.... they are alienating us from mainstream religion, so we must be the ONE TRUE RELIGION!!!....(they would have to find some other story to tell their followers about why the Mormons, Scientologists, etc. are also being taxed/alienated, but I'm sure they could figure out some way to DENY that). In the meantime, we would have their tax dollars to solve legitimate problems like healthcare, etc.

    To use an example, some people could complain that they got their driver's licence, so they should be able to drive however they want........ the gov't doesn't need to BAN people from driving, instead they make rules, that, based on their severity, if you break them , you begin to PROVE to the rest of society that you don't deserve the RIGHT to drive anymore. The gov't, during that time was smart enough to train peoples' minds that "driving is a privilege". (No one ever complains when a privilege is taken away... only when a right is. They should begin to train people to understand that freedom of religion is a privilege as well and that, based on that religion's fairness to society, that religion's judgement of what is appropriate will be altered, if need be.

    And, to be honest, Czar, it surprises me that you are suggesting that God gave us freedom of religion!!!!! Gary Buss made a good point.......... God or whatever system we want to base our existence on, gave us free thought.......... religion tells us that it has to be within certain guidelines, BUT SOCIETY as a whole, ultimately decides if those BEHAVIOURS are good or fair for the world.

    God bless America...........................PLEASE!!!! teehee....

    B.

  • outbutnotdown
    outbutnotdown

    Xena,

    Was that in the article? I couldn't get any more than what Ezekiel3 had copied, to come up. If they went to that extreme to say that then that is a concern as well, for sure, but I still think that it is OK for them to make public the concerns they have about other more extreme religions, like Jw's, Mormons and Scientologists.

    Heathen,

    This may sound harsh, but have you gone to a doctor to ask whether you are a "paranoid delusional" person? The rest of the world is not out to "get the Americans". Sheesh!!!!

    B.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    You seem to see things in absolutes.

    Some things ARE absolute. On earth, gravity exerts a force of 9.8 m/s/s If we were somewhere else, maybe it would be different. In fact, certainly. But on earth, 9.8 is your number.

    With humans, freedom of belief is absolute. "They can bind the tongues of men but they cannot chain their thoughts." People CAN and WILL believe whatever they please. Santa, communism, or any other fat red fantasy... including the imminent return of Jehovah and that blood transfusions really piss him off.

    For instance, no matter how ILLEGAL you make it for somebody to drive, they can still get behind the wheel of a car and drive it. My drunk buddy had no license, no insurance, and was under a COURT ORDER not to drive, but he did it anyway and wrecked SOMEBODY ELSE's car and is now paying out his ass for the rest of his life. He deserved it. I have no sympathy for him. But the example PROVES that the LAW cannot really be enforced on people who just WON'T obey it. Gun laws, drug laws, cleanup after your dog laws... You can punish them out of all proportion to their offense, like the current drug war is doing, and people still do whatever they want. It's like herding cats. The only way to round up a pile of cats is to get them to WANT to go where you want them to go. Bang on a can of tuna and all three of my cats will run wherever I want them to. Of course, I'd better have real tuna for them or they'll pee on my carpet...

    God gave us freedom of religion!!!!!

    Well, obviously not the Bible God. I'm thinking more along the Masonic lines that founded my country. But it is an inalienable right of man to worship however he pleases. You CANNOT separate man from his beliefs. It isn't possible.

    To sum up: Banning JW's is NOT something a human CAN do. No matter how hard you try, you will always have to deal with them in your society. So let them come out, let everyone see how stupid they are, and they will fade into irrelevancy like they are doing in the USA. In fact, while this is very hard for us to let happen, what the best way to solve the blood transfusion thing is to let them into the open but PUBLICIZE their decision. If a witness kid is dying, put it on the six o'clock news every night. Form a rally against the religion's demands. Demand that it allow blood transfuisions. Humiliate them, ridicule them on SNL, and mock them and their extremism in the papers. They'll knuckle - or at least their parents will. And their ability to make converts will be lessened - they won't be heroic defenders of freedom, the public will see them as fanatical babykillers (which they are.) And that's the war that you have to win. Public opinion and perception.

    But they will always believe what they believe unless you make an effort to change it.

    CZAR

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