Does Belgium Have it Right About JWs?

by ezekiel3 106 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Pole

  Panda,

  I guess you realize that your reply is nothing but empty rhetorics. It's a pity you are so content with your isolationism.

  Well, so you are concerned about the future of my country?

  So you think America needs no feedback from the rest of the world? Ok, I won't give you any more. Good luck. Besides, if you hadn't intentionally ignored my very next sentence you wouldn't make this stupid comment. Twisted rhetorics example #1.

  "Don't worry, I don't dream about becoming an American voter." I won't worry. Plenty of other Europeans want to come here and earn the priveldge to vote. Many infact from Poland.

  Is that supposed to make me feel inferior? Plenty of Americans come to Europe because they're fed up with their cultrue. How's that for an argument? Jingoism and twisted rhetorics example #2.

  "It just seems like some of you have lost many of the values on which America was built." And exactly what would you know about American values of the 18th century? OK maybe that's unfair. Maybe you are a historian and I should give you credit for studying American history.

  Oh, Panda, you shouldn't have made this comment if you immediatly admitted that it may be unappropriate. Instead you should have asked an honest question. First of all I studied American culture and history among other things. Secondly you should know that the cultural transfer between America and Europe is one-directional. the average European knows much more about the American culture (even f it's folk knowledge from Hollywood movies), than vice versa.

  " Now you think you are smart and you delegate the "dirty job" of accepting the Turks to the EU, thus ruining its economy." You are the one calling the acceptance of Turkey a dirty job, not me. I merely comment on the fact that your economy will be adversely effected by this move and yet I suppose it will be easier to get in the middle of that group of Islamics and Christians in Turkey in some imperialist way when you share an economy.

  Either you know nothing about political correctness or you are being intentionaly dishonest about my reply. So, you say, you "merely commented on the fact"? Don't be ridiculous. Your intentions are evident even from your last comment:

  " How cunning. " Why thank you Pole. That's the nicest comment you've made to me.

  Your problem is that I haven't made a single ksenophobic comment on this thread that could offend you or any American person. If I have, please show me where. I didn't say America is worse in any respect than any other country. I even admitted they're doing economically better than any other country.

  I only objected to the idea that all countries should adopt the American constitution. What I got as a reply was a pile of nationalist aforismic comments pretending to be clever observations on international policy. I also got intimidated and misquoted.

  Well, I guess that's how some people react to criticism.
• 

  czarofmischief

  that they have been so worried about "freedom of religion" that they allow organizations to prosper that by their very existence, steal this same freedom that was intended to be granted in the first place. The WTBTS, and many other extreme religions are perfect examples of this.

  Those freedoms are not granted by the government. They are granted by God. When he made you, he made you free to choose what religion you wanted. While as a private citizen I will wage an unremitting information war against the WT. But I will never trust the government to use any power I give it to keep me safe from the WT. Because how long until the government starts to get used to busting heads, to confiscating funds, to looking like Robin Hood, and it comes for you!

  The same people who shriek about Guantanamo are also perfectly willing to let the government decide for them which religions are appropriate for them to live by. Don't you see the contradiction? It's the same government! If the US cracks down on scientology and JW's, what is it going to do with the hardcore believers that refuse to give up their faith? Put them in camps seems to be the general reaction. And then some get murdered, some starve or get sick, and then you have a real crime on your hands. And the government, once it has assembled that apparatus, is going to perpetuate its effort by picking the "most" extreme religion and destroying it, and then going after the next one and the next one. When has government ever disassembled or stopped doing anything?

  I do believe that the WT is an invalid, untrue belief system. But the only way to combat THAT is truth. Information. Spread the word. The Internet has done more damage to the WT than any amount of government sanction ever did. And that's what freedom is - to be free to make the WRONG choice.

  And no, I don't care about crackheads. They are a waste and a drain on society and if they come into my house, which happens a lot in these lawless states, perhaps in that comfortable Northern Suburb they are too cold to break windows, then they are leaving in a a couple of garbage bags.

  CZAR
• 

  Pole

  double post
• 

  Pole

  Czar,
  

  If the US cracks down on scientology and JW's, what is it going to do with the hardcore believers that refuse to give up their faith? Put them in camps seems to be the general reaction. And then some get murdered, some starve or get sick, and then you have a real crime on your hands. And the government, once it has assembled that apparatus, is going to perpetuate its effort by picking the "most" extreme religion and destroying it, and then going after the next one and the next one. When has government ever disassembled or stopped doing anything?

  That's a good observation in general. However Belgium doesn't put JWs in concentration camps. They just get discriminated. They're not treated as any mainstream religion.

  I do believe that the WT is an invalid, untrue belief system. But the only way to combat THAT is truth. Information. Spread the word. The Internet has done more damage to the WT than any amount of government sanction ever did. And that's what freedom is - to be free to make the WRONG choice.

  Ok. But in Belgium the idea is that the government should react once this kind of knowledge reaches them, by making it explicit that they won't tolerate some of their beliefs, because they are socially harmful (e.g unnecessary deaths). It's the last stage of this information campaign that you've mentioned.
• 

  garybuss

  But in Belgium the idea is that the government should react once this kind of knowledge reaches them, by making it explicit that they won't tolerate some of their beliefs, because they are socially harmful (e.g unnecessary deaths).

  Is the Belgium government concerned with the "beliefs"? or the behaviors? I have never heard of a belief resulting in a death, only a behavior. Are you sure you don't have "belief" and "behavior" mixed up?
  
  
  
  
• 

  Pole

  garybuss wrote:
  

  Is the Belgium government concerned with the "beliefs"? or the behaviors? I have never heard of a belief resulting in a death, only a behavior. Are you sure you don't have "belief" and "behavior" mixed up?

  in reply to pole's comment:
  

  some of their beliefs, because they are socially harmful (e.g unnecessary deaths).

  I guess we mean the same thing here. They act upon their beliefs (e.g. blood policy) which result in behaviours (not accepting blood), which may sometimes lead to unnecessary deaths of JWs kids. This is how I think some beliefs result in behaviours which in turn result deaths if you want to be that precise.

  Edited to add. But I see your point, and I like it. They can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't put it in practice.
• 

  metatron

  Hooray for Belgium ( and France) finally showing some good sense about JW's.

  Let's see : The Watchtower wants to break up families to enforce its demands, they want to persecute people for joining the

  armed forces, they want to quietly persecute people for voting, they want full rights to endlessly annoy and harass people at

  their doors to become Witnesses while preaching the threat of death - and they want a tax exemption form the government

  to subsidize themselves. Have I left anything out?

  There is no excuse for these nations to continue to grant tax exemptions to this socially destructive group. It isn't fair

  or just to the tax paying citizens. Don't put 'em in concentration camps, just tax 'em.

  metatron
• 

  garybuss

  Pole, I have no problems with anybody's beliefs on the planet, ever. I have no problem with Hitler's beliefs. It's behaviors I have a problem with. I say belief and behavior are not related. I believe I am good looking but I have never entered a beauty contest. I believe I don't like to go the doctor's office, but I go every year. What I believe and what I do are not necessarily related.
  
  I think what Witnesses DO is more related to what behaviors are allowed without sanctions than those behaviors being related to the Witness's personal beliefs. I doubt very many Witnesses honestly believe they like calling at stranger's doors and repeating that going door to door, but they are required to practice that behavior or face social and secular sanctions. Their behavior is more related to compliance than belief.
  
  The confusion of beliefs and practices is a strategy used by the Witnesses for years. Every time someone objects to their behaviors, they say their beliefs are under attack. In reality their beliefs were not even a subject. The subject was their behaviors. The belief substitution for behavior is their common straw man. The governments know the difference, I know the difference, and now you know the difference:-) GaryB
  
  
  
  
• 

  dh

  in some other countries, they are able to research these radical religions (cults), and make a better judgement

  yep, belgium definitely have it right.
• 

  Pole

  Gary,

  I think I sensed the difference, but never made it so explicit. Your clarification is useful. Thanks for that.