Hey guys, I haven't been around in a while and it's nice to be back. I have some questions that have been bothering me, and I need some help. I am a Christian and I have been witnessing to a JW, yet there is one strong hard question which I have trouble answering. Why did God create the Earth if (like I believe) we are going to end up in Heaven? What was his purpose in creating the Earth? How come we end up in heaven? If you can, please provide Bible verses. I haven't studied eschatology that much, but I am planning to. Thank you for the information.
God's purpose for Earth
by ClassAvenger 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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FairMind
Hello ClassAvenger, I believe that the answer to your question is that JWs do have some things right. Since we know that whatever it is that God purposes will come to be let's consider:
1.) God's purpose for Adam and Eve was that they and their offspring (all mankind) would have everlasting life on "Earth". He also purposed that mankind would make the Earth into a paradise. Have they done that yet? No, so that too must occur.
2.) Those that go to heaven to be with Christ are to be Kings and Priests. Over what and who? The Earth and its inhabitants. This must mean that they with Jesus will rule mankind as kings and will in their priestly positions act as mediators between mankind and God as long as that is needed. Who will be in heaven and who will be on earth? I don't know, but my preference would be to enjoy life as a perfect eternally youthful person, on a paradise earth ruled by Christ and God.
I'm no scholar but in reading the Bible I certainly do see that it holds out both hopes, that of everlasting life on earth for most of mankind and that of eternal life in heaven for others. Who exactly fits into these two groups is a matter of educated speculation; your opinion is just as valid as mine.
The JW religion main shortfall in my opinion is not "doctrine" but one of missing the spirit of God's word. The many, many errors of the WT organization have and are still coming to light. This is to be expected (for all other religions too) because Jehovah is a God of Light, not darkness. The WT organization has acted as if it is exempt from accountability to God for applying His word to themselves, and this is their downfall.
FM
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Narkissos
FairMind,
As you obviously agree with JWs on this topic, a discussion of your points might be helpful to ClassAvenger and (perhaps) others.
God's purpose for Adam and Eve was that they and their offspring (all mankind) would have everlasting life on "Earth".
Where does the text positively say that? Genesis 2--3 is a tale about the origin of death and many other aspects of reality, including human knowledge, childbearing... What would have happened to Adam and Eve hadn't they eaten of the fruit is no part of the text. If we just reverse the actual outcome of the story (as you do regarding death) we could as well imagine them as sterile dumb male and female endlessly facing each other stupidly, while the snake would go on talking and walking around (remember, the serpent goes on its belly as a result of the "fall" as well).
He also purposed that mankind would make the Earth into a paradise.
I fail to see the least Biblical basis for this assertion.
Those that go to heaven to be with Christ are to be Kings and Priests. Over what and who? The Earth and its inhabitants. This must mean that they with Jesus will rule mankind as kings and will in their priestly positions act as mediators between mankind and God as long as that is needed.
This picture fits only Revelation in the whole Bible (and some extra-canonical millenarist texts outside of the Bible). Whatever the author had in mind as to the future of the earth, he doesn't envision two hopes for his fellow believers. All of them were to be kings and priests, not "subjects".
I'm no scholar but in reading the Bible I certainly do see that it holds out both hopes, that of everlasting life on earth for most of mankind and that of eternal life in heaven for others.
Once again, I fail to see any scripture (except perhaps in Revelation, see above) that could be interpreted as meaning individual everlasting life on earth. What I can see in Psalms, for instance, is a collective earthly triumph of the righteous and their offspring, but this doesn't make them individually immortal. And the texts about individual everlasting life are obviously referring to another realm (although connected to the present experience of the righteous/faithful).
Perhaps you could bring in specific texts...
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Carmel
Dear Fairminded,
Is it consistant to admit to not being a scholar then to go on to condem "all other religions too"? Notably, a scholar would provide proof of evidence to support such a broad brush stroke, but by denying you are one allows you to not support your contentions.
Even a hint at evidentiary citation would be tantalizing!
camel
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bebu
Hi Class Avenger,
The propositions that Fairmind makes are interesting, but they are not actually supported by the Bible. Eg:
He also purposed that mankind would make the Earth into a paradise.
Where was this purposed? Where does it say mankind would "make" earth a paradise? There are only 3 mentions of paradise in the Bible, and all refer to a place already existing, not a place to be built here by men in the future.
But anyway... here's my broad take on it.
1. God did not create the earth to be unihabited.
ISA 45:18 For this is what the LORD says--
he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited...2. The home of the redeemed is both heaven and earth--the NEW ones. Being "at home with the Lord" means something beyond a physical presence in a physical place.
2 Pet 3:13
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. (Which is home? Both.)3. The new Jerusalem (heaven) comes to earth, and God dwells on earth with men.
Rev. 21:2
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem , coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."There is only one hope for all, not divided hopes. Heaven will come upon earth, as God's presence (the stuff of heaven) descends to fill it completely. Heaven as well as earth belong to those who love God. Heaven and earth will be united, not divided.
bebu
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Leolaia
bebu.....What you describe, a dissolution of distinctions between heaven and earth, is how I've long read Revelation, particularly in the Jewish chiliast tradition that claims that Paradise (i.e. the Garden of Eden) was preserved in heaven (thus, it was not destroyed in the Flood) and would be revealed or re-joined to the earth after the end-times. This view is dependent on the far older pre-exilic idea that Paradise itself was located in heaven, in the cosmic Mountain of God (cf. Ezekiel 28:13-15), which in still older Canaanite mythology was the well-watered and verdant abode of El, the creator god. However, there is still the biblical theme of a final destruction of the present heavens and earth and the creation of a new heavens and earth that is also found in Revelation (and dates back to similar statements in Isaiah 34:4 and even Canaanite myths about the heavens shrinking and rolling up like a flap). This is the biggest problem for the Watchtower's millenarianism, for they do not hold that the present earth or heaven would be destroyed, despite the very clear statements of 2 Peter 3 about the elemental dissolution of nature that parallels the destruction wrought by the Flood (a concept derived from Stoic philosophy). There is one Christian or Jewish text (I forgot the citation for the time being, perhaps the Sibylline Oracles) that describes the earth and the lower two heavens being dissolved. Since Paradise was in third heaven (cf. 2 Enoch 8, 2 Corinthians 12:2-3), it would not be destroyed.
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Narkissos
On the three heavens,
Testament of Levi 2:5ff:
Then there fell upon me a sleep, and I beheld a high mountain, and I was upon it. And behold the heavens were opened and an angel of God said to me, Levi enter And I entered from the first heaven, and I saw there a great sea hanging. And further I saw a second heaven far brighter and more brilliant, for there was a boundless light also therein. And I said to the angel, Why Is this so? And the angel said to me, Marvel not at this, for thou shalt see another heaven more brilliant and incomparable.
(The original three heavens are later developed into seven, the most common view in later works). -
FairMind
Hello dissenters! Like I said, I'm no scholar and my stated beliefs are only my humble opinions. These are however honest opinions and to me fit the biblical account of God's purposes for mankind and the planet earth. As a Christian I'm always open to better interpretations that provide more accurate knowledge. So, enlighten me regarding your opinions :
1.) Why God created the earth? What is his purpose for this planet, now and future?
2.) Why did God create mankind and why is it we die. Did we inherit our sinful ways because of Adam and Eve's original sin or did God create us as sinful creatures? If Adam and Eve had not sinned, how would things be different than they became?
3. Why do you think all Christians go to heaven and what is it they will do there?
4. Do you really believe that God is going burn up the literal planet earth and destroy the literal heavens? If so why?
5.) Do you believe in God? If so, is it the God of the Bible or another God?
6. Do you believe the Bible account of creation? Do you believe in evolution and if so what accounts for the intra-harmony of the living and non-living ecology?
By the way, I did not attack anyone else's religious beliefs, I merely stated my own. Other folks can be just as right as I am and they can also be just as wrong. FairMinded enough?
FM
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Leolaia
4. Do you really believe that God is going burn up the literal planet earth and destroy the literal heavens? If so why?
This is clear from the text of 2 Peter 3. I had a series of posts not too long ago where I discussed in detail what this text discussed and how it depends on Stoic philosophy. Could someone post a link, I can't remember where the thread was? In sum, there is a parallelism between the coming destruction of the world by fire and the previous destruction by water in the Flood. The allusion to stoikhea "elements" (from where the word Stoic comes from) melting, betrays the Aristotlean and specifically Stoic concept of the world being composed of the four elements (water, fire, earth, air) which will transmute during the final conflagration which the Greeks believed would consume the entire world in fire, which will then cool, and then produce cooler elements (i.e. earth and water) and recreate a new world. The concept in 2 Peter is very Stoic, and there are several other Stoic technical terms throughout the epistle. The notion is nothing less than the complete destruction of the world and heavens (with the element "air"), down to the very elements that compose it. The same concept of a conflagration of fire appears in other Petrine pseudepigrapha (cf. the Apocalypse of Peter), as well as in the Jewish-Christian Sibylline Oracles: "For there will be as much fire raging the earth as water, and it will flow and destroy the whole earth. It will burn up mountains, burn rivers and empty springs. The world will be chaos when men perish" (SibOr 7:120-123). As for the world being recreated anew, we could also note the Jewish apocalypse of 4 Ezra:
"For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings, so that no one shall be left. And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. And the earth shall give up those who sleep in it. and the chambers shall give up the soul which has been committed to them. And the Most High shall be revealed upont he seat of judgment and compassion shall perish....Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it the place of rest; and the furnace of Gehenna shall be disclosed and opposite it the Paradise of delight" (4 Ezra 7:28-36).
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frankiespeakin
FM,
6. Do you believe the Bible account of creation? Do you believe in evolution and if so what accounts for the intra-harmony of the living and non-living ecology?
What does that have to do with anything?