Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown 86 Replies latest jw friends

  • Country_Woman
    Country_Woman

    I'll never was that far away to attemp suicide - even in my worst experience - I always saw opportunities.

    I think that was because of my pain was'nt worse enough or that I rationalised that life would end even if I did'nt make steps to fasten it. Any way, "dead" is irreversable and when I don't like that experience I would stick to it. wether I like it or not...

    So far my personal feelings.

    I feel sad for everybody that attempt suicide - they must be in great pain and are not able to look over all the consequences.

  • Tim Horton
    Tim Horton

    Suicide is very strong and horrible thing. My sister has tried to commit it once. I'v tried to take drug overdose twice but I'm still here. You really can't blame the person because they are in the wrong state of mind and headframe. You feal in the depth of despair and you will, can't not ever get out. All the curtains are drawn.You wan't nobody around.You are deeply depressed.If you spot these signs coming on. THis person needs help. It's very sad. I don't hold any bad feelings toward people who try to commit suicide because theres usually a valid reason. Not always. But you have to imagine that things have reached rock bottom.I had such bad post partom depression this time around I honestly thought, this is it.I can't do this anymore. It was horrible. But things did look up and hear I am chatting to you. Depression is horrible, but its not the victims falt. That person needs alot of support. Bottom line-get help

  • flower
    flower
    I think if they want to do it, they will find a way anyway, so why not let them? From what most peoples' opinions are they are beyond help other than helping themselves anyway. However, at what point do we lay the law down, so to speak, to prevent them from hurting others, especially the children?

    Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and the money SOLELY on the victims of suicide. They are truly the innocent ones in the matter.

    Due to your experience growing up with a very sick person you seem to be incapable of viewing suicide from any view but your own..that of the 'other' people.

    While I certainly understand and feel very badly for you for your experiences I still believe it would do you some good to realize that most people who do it are nothing like your crazy father.

    Lumping everyone who attempts suicide into your little box with your fathers picture on the front cover displays a severe lack of ability to listen and empathize with someone outside of your limited viewpoint. Most of us dont just go around attempting suicide every couple of months just for kicks.

    After listening to some of the descriptions of a suicidal mind and the pain involved in getting to that point, if you can still sit there and suggest that they are not anything worth spending time or money on helping and the only victims are those left behind...well if thats the case you apparently havent spent enough time in therapy recovering from your awful experience.

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    IMO, people who attempt suicide and fail, the attempt is just a cry for help. When people really mean to exit, they succeed.

    DY

  • outbutnotdown
    outbutnotdown

    Flower,

    Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and the money SOLELY on the victims of suicide. They are truly the innocent ones in the matter.

    I shouldn't have used the word SOLELY. I meant to emphasize the "less" part as far as the efforts put into helping the suicidal compared to the other people involved. It doesn't represent how I truly feel about people who do go to the depths of despair and contemplate, or succeed at suicide. I was trying to make the point that we tend to forget about the other people involved more than we should. Despite the fact that I have gone through this crazy sh*t, even I have found myself swayed towards believing that the families left behind are less than what they were before the suicide.

    Thanks for the opinion, but no, I don't lump everybody who attempts suicide into that little box that you speak of. (I realize that my father was, unfortunately "crazy" as you say.) I think if you read the other posts that I have made you would have realized that, rather than picking on one word that I used. I feel for people who have been in that state. I was there once myself, and it's not only for that reason that I feel for them. It's the fact that I realized, no matter how BAD it seemed at the time, it would not be fair to "the other people" if I went through with it. Besides that, I learned that the hell that I was in was mostly created by myself.

    I've learned to create heaven on earth...... and I'm very happy that through therapy I am in complete control of my state of mind, not other people or incidents that have happened in the past.

    I will state though, that from your original post and the last one, you would still do well to consider a little more the "other people" involved. I'm not sure if you career is in that field or not, but you seem to rush to judgement a little quickly.

    People who assume its a ploy or attention seeking stunt or manipulation simply have never really been there. Some people think they are so important that everything someone does must be about them. Their attitude is if someone tries to end their life it must be just to hurt me somehow. Thats just because most people cant comprehend feeling that bad. But it is possible to truly believe that it is the best thing for everyone.

    Brad

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Well, since I once "attempted" suicide, I could rephrase this question in another (personal) way:

    "How did I view myself"?

    I was hurting, with a pain beyond words; hopeless, stunned, feeling a pain so deep that it went beyond pain, to a state of painless pain.

    What stopped me from pulling the trigger?

    The belief that, if I did pull that trigger, I would thereby exclude myself from the hope of resurrection.

    That was then.

    Now...well, death is death, and I won't go through hoops to avoid it; but I won't hasten it.

  • flower
    flower
    I shouldn't have used the word SOLELY. I meant to emphasize the "less" part as far as the efforts put into helping the suicidal compared to the other people involved. It doesn't represent how I truly feel about people who do go to the depths of despair and contemplate, or succeed at suicide. I was trying to make the point that we tend to forget about the other people involved more than we should. Despite the fact that I have gone through this crazy sh*t, even I have found myself swayed towards believing that the families left behind are less than what they were before the suicide.

    I agree with you there probably should be more support for those left behind after a suicide if that is what you mean. There is support out there but unfortunately these families rarely reach out for it...there should be more but it is out there.

    Most support assistance is in place to prevent the act from happening in the first place which IMO makes a lot more sense than saying 'forget about them, they are as good as dead anyway but after they do it lets have lots more support for those left behind'. That is in essence what your previous post mentioned..I'm glad you have revised your thinking on that however I disagree that we should focus less efforts on the suicidal person than those around them. Of course if you feel there is a lack of such support I respect that.

    I think if you read the other posts that I have made you would have realized that, rather than picking on one word that I used.

    Umm you not only used the word but capitalized it in order to emphasize it and the point you were making. Now that you have changed your mind on your use of the word and the point I dont think its fair to get on me for commenting on it.

    I was there once myself, and it's not only for that reason that I feel for them. It's the fact that I realized, no matter how BAD it seemed at the time, it would not be fair to "the other people" if I went through with it. Besides that, I learned that the hell that I was in was mostly created by myself.

    And I'm glad that worked for you. However, again, we shouldnt lump. Just because in your case it would not be fair to the other people in your life does not mean others feel the same way.

    There are numerous reason someone would feel just the opposite. In many cases, the reason for the depression and suicidal feelings is at least partially the responsibility of those other people (eg parents who push their children beyond their capabilities, an abusive spouse, parents who shun and use guilt or manipulation to steal any bit of hope from their child etc etc)

    There are also cases where serious illness is involved and the 'attempter' feels it is fair to the caregiver that they stop being a burden to them. This would especially be true if the 'other people' do things to make the attempter feel like they are a burden (constantly complaining about having to help the sick one)

    Surely you see that there are numerous reason why your viewpoint of 'think of the people you are leaving behind' does not always work. In fact, sometimes if you focus an attempter on the people left behind it could make their tendencies to suicide even stronger.

    IMO, people who attempt suicide and fail, the attempt is just a cry for help. When people really mean to exit, they succeed.

    DY, I am sure this is true in a few cases however you cant just assume that everyone knows how to kill themselves properly...especially young people. When I was a kid I remember my mother telling us not to take more than 3 tylenol at a time for pain or headaches. When we asked why she said because if we took too many it could be fatal. I had no reason not to believe her so at 16 during a particularly hopeless situation I decided that if 3 was too many than surely 50 would be more than enough. I took the bottle with every intention of dying.

    It wasnt a cry for help as not one person knows of this within my family or circle. It wasnt a cry for help because I believed truly that I was beyond such. It was simply a lack of true knowledge about Tylenol and its ability to kill someone. It was no different than if I had stepped in front of a truck and ended up in a hospital instead of dead.

    Fortunately, for those of us who have made failed attempts and then managed to turn their thinking and lives completely around to enjoy all that life has to offer its not true that if someone really wants to they wont fail.

  • BrendaCloutier
    BrendaCloutier

    I've see a lot of understanding here in this thread, some apathy, some appropriate anger at being manipulated.

    The idea I've tried to convey in my posts is that me, as an individual, I am not capable of saving a suicidal life by myself. I have the love, the understanding, but not the skills. It's a WE job that starts with the person who becomes aware of the situation.

    I am capable of getting the process started by involving professionals.

    Saving a suicidal life means getting them help if they are not capable of helping themselves. It may mean contacting other friends or family and doing a psychiatric intervention. Or just picking them up on the premise you are going to coffee, and taking them to the Emergency Ward.

    It means going out of your way to ensure the life and sanity of someone else. Usually a close friend or relative.

    I doubt if any of us here are trained or skilled at helping a person past the dark pain they are in, and helping them get to the root of the problem, let alone prescribe psych drugs they may need.

    Even the threatener/manipulator is in need of psychiatric help to get beyond their need to manipulate and control. Dumping them in the hospital just might do them some good, too. So what if they're angry with you. They are already angry enough to threaten suicide.

    What I'm trying to say is don't just nurture, don't ignore, ACT. Even if it is with "tough love". It is THAT important. Even if you think they're full of BS.

    Hugs

    Brenda

  • LyinEyes
    LyinEyes

    I posted a long reply last night and lost it, so I will try to remember the things I said and write it again.

    I can totally understand what kls is saying about the way that some people still judge the family members of a suicide. The rage is from a total fear of mental illness, thinking that you too, the family of the suicide victim, is just a moment away from doing the same, to whispers when you walk in a room or treading lightly on the subject in your presense. I can understand why people feel this way, not all people do this of course , but I found it especially so while I was a JW.

    When my mother committed suicide , I was sooooooo angry at her. I was so hurt, but I was also mad at her , I just felt she was so selfish. All of my young childhood she was taking prescription drugs, sleeping all the time, in pain with migraines, crying or depressed for most of the time. There were of course breaks in the cloud moments where she would coming shining thru as the beautiful , fun, loving person I knew she could be. I lived for those moments and they carried me thru the dark times with her, enabling me to encourage her , beg her even to get help, to come back to me as my Mother and not the person she was becoming , finding it harder for herself to pull out of the darkness the longer it went on.

    Because of the drug abuse and the depression , and the horrible way my father , the good JW PO elder, treated her , she was not there for me emotionally, and many times not even physically to give the hugs all children need to thrive. My only hope as a child would be for her to be the way I saw her in those times when she was not on the pills, when she was happy.

    About four months before she committed suicide,,,,,,things seemed to be going good for her and I, at least in regards to our relationship as mother and daughter. I spent the night with her a few times in her new apartment when my hubby left out of town to work and she made me breakfast in bed. I can only remember a few times in my life as a child that she took care of me , that she was the mother , and those were times I was very, very ill. So , as you can imagine , I felt that my dreams had finally come true. I was getting the Mother I wanted so badly for so long,,,,,and this time it didnt end in a week or two. I was seeing her blossom and I was so proud of all that she had accomplished.

    I didnt see the suicide coming at all. Growing up........ I feared it everyday. I was there when her stomach was pumped so many times......I was there as she screamed my name down the hospital halls, begging for me to make the doctors stop hurting her. I knew what I had to do those times and I just forced the lump in my throat and the tears on my face away. I had to be strong for her and I just knew that if we made it thru this, she would be better. Too many times she took too many pills and too many times she was taken away for weeks at a time for rehab , chemical dependency and depression. I had to be strong there too....... I had to take care of my little sister and rock her to sleep as she cried , staring at a picture of our mother on the wall,,,,I had to be way too grown up .

    That is why I was so mad at her , so very angry because when she did succeed in suicide she took away all the hope I had of her being the mother that I so needed her to be,,,,,even at the age of 18 , I wanted her to mother me . I honestly still do , and guess I always will since I only got brief tastes of it . I thought how selfish of her to show me how wonderful she could be and then take it away from me, how could she?

    It took me many years of going back and forth from grief, shock, hurt, anger and then guilt for being mad at a dead person. I knew all too well, that she was in so much pain, I knew why she did it. I have always understood that deep down, but for once in my life, I guess I had to feel selfish myself. Someone had to understand my pain, someone had to stand up for me and I guess I did that for myself as I always have.

    It has taken a long time to go thru the process of grieving for her, and each year she has been gone, I have grown to know her more, to understand her more. With a good many years of life behind me, having my babies, all the ups and downs of life, my own depressions, my own pain, I have seen her in a new light. I can really understand what my Mom went thru,,,,,,,as one book title says ,,,,,"My Mother , Myself", I pretty much say that sums up how I feel about my Mom now.

    I have made some of the same mistakes that I vowed as a naive teenager to never make, with my own kids and my own life.

    I forgave myself for being so mad at my mother for succeeding in her suicide , because I know she was sick and in pain. She wasnt a crazy loon,,,,,,,,she wasnt trying to get attention, she wasnt trying to hurt me or anyone. There are many reasons that I am sure contributed to her choice of ending her own life. I am sure there are some things I don't know. I only wish that she was here, but I know she is with me in spirit and I pray that if she is out there somewhere that she too forgives me for being so angry at her for what she did. But, I know my Mother, she would totally understand , the way she always did when I made mistakes.

    I have to say that those people who do attempt suicide, weither they are successful or not,,,,,,,are deeply hurting. Maybe they don't take enough pills , but they take a chance that it could do them in. It must take a lot of guts,( for lack of a better term) to actually go thru with ending your own life. I know in my mom's case , there were many half hearted attempts and some almost successful ones, and then the last one. So , my view is that if someone makes an attempt , no matter how many may say what they think about it , no one knows for sure what is in that person's mind . Sooner or later, some will get to the point of no return and they will succeed in ending their life. I would take every attempt no matter how half hearted some may THINK it is,,,,,,,very seriously.

  • outbutnotdown
    outbutnotdown

    (((((((((((((((LyinEyes)))))))))))))))

    Very Moving!!! It honestly brought tears to my eyes.... partly for you and partly for me.... very similar experiences you and I have had.

    Sounds like you have gone through all the stages of recovery already. Good for you.

    Brad

    Edited to add:

    LyinEyes,

    It seems to me that you have been very honest with yourself about the whole unfortunate circumstance. You're damn right you had a right to be angry, but more importantly you've seen it through your mothers' eyes as well. IMHO, no one can be expected to do more than that.

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