Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown 86 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  flower

  ((((((Dede)))))) I'm glad you shared that. I think someone who might be feeling the same way your mother did inside should hear stories from people like you and Brad who can give them another perspective on the situation especially if they have children as young as you guys were.

  I'm glad you got past your guilt at being angry. After all, anger is a normal phase of recovery.

  It really is difficult for everyone involved. I agree that whether someone is just talking about suicide or attempting it no matter how sincere the attempt is, action needs to be taken.

  The problem with JW's is that so often they ignore the fact that someone may need professional help. They arent qualified to help people emotionally and so they ignore it.

  It wasnt until I left that I was able to get help....a wicked, evil 'wordly person' supported me, showed me unconditional love and when necessary forced me into treatment.
• 

  LyinEyes

  I can tell you guys that posting these feelings,,,,,,as raw as they have been at times, has been the most healing thing for me. In the last two years since I have been on this board, leaving behind the JW thinking and false comfort about my Mother,,,,, I have been able to work thru so many feelings.
  

  All deaths are hard to accept,,,,,,,but I have to say that a suicide is especially hard,,,,,,there is usually always a measure of blame that the ones left behind put on themselves. I did that for so many years, blaming myself for being angry at her, for treating her harshly when she failed in sobrieity. I did treat her harshly because I was trained well by my Father and the organization ,,,,,,although I did love my Mother deeply, I was harsh in so many ways to her. But I do forgive myself because I was just a girl. I know for a fact my Mama would be proud that I turned out to be so much more like her , instead of being the exact copy of my Father for so long. She would be pleased to know that I can see and I live my life with her favorite moto......" Live and Let Live", be open minded, be forgiving, and so on. I don't know how I survived being a self righteous JW for so long,,,,,, I know it was against my good conscience because I never felt at peace. I know she felt that way too , and I could write a book on why I feel the WT has blood on their hands in regards to her death and the way the brothers and those taking the lead made her and soooo many others like her feel... which was .......that , they were never good enough.

  That is why I tell our story,,,,,,,hers and mine,,,,,,,,because I just hope that others will not feel so alone in their feelings. I felt so alone for so many years while a JW, never really able to talk about my Mom, or her suicide or if Jah would forgive her . Being able to share this pain, and hearing others stories have brought me to a place of peace . Sure, there are times I get so fired up, especially in regards to the WT's role in so many suicides, but I just want to stop these needless deaths . I know if my Mom was here she would be doing the same thing,,,,,,,so I am her voice, just like I was when I was a girl, and I hope that her story will help others.
• 

  outbutnotdown

  Flower, you said:

  Most support assistance is in place to prevent the act from happening in the first place which IMO makes a lot more sense than saying 'forget about them, they are as good as dead anyway but after they do it lets have lots more support for those left behind'. That is in essence what your previous post mentioned

  This not at all what I was suggesting. I am in absolute complete agreement that prevention is the best policy. The very way that I live my life is proof that I believe in suicide prevention. Creating a happy, peaceful environment for my four kids is the best way that I can do the biggest part to "prevent" suicide.

  This "topic", however, is not about prevention, it's about the "after the fact", irregardless of the circumstances. Therefore, I never mentioned a word about prevention until now. Don't make an insinuation that my opinion is that we shouldn't care about preventing it or even about caring about people who do attempt it. When I used the word SOLELY it was coming more from emotions than logic. However, rather than you accepting that correction on my part, you continue to throw insults rather than looking at the big, REAL picture of the other points I and others here are trying to make.

  Doubtfully Yours makes a point, that people who don't succeed are just making a cry for help. I'm sure that many people out here can attest to that point being true as well. Instead of accepting that point as being legit you try to refute it by showing that when you didn't succeed, it wasn't because you didn't do your best. Hey, I don't think anyone here will say that they wish you were better informed about the best options to kill yourself, since you'd be dead... and that's not nice!!!!

  I find this whole thing truly ironic. You accuse me and others of putting things into our own "little boxes", "lumping" things and, in general, (if you can, for a moment refrain from telling me not to "generalize") you are questioning everybody's viewpoint that is not EXACTLY like yours. What's that saying about the kettle and the teapot?

  I feel for what you went through as much I do anybody else who has gone through it and in no way am I retracting that empathy, however I will still get back to my point awhile ago about the fact that you seem to not have too much empathy for others.

  Brad
• 

  BrendaCloutier

  IMO, people who attempt suicide and fail, the attempt is just a cry for help

  Not necessarily, Minimus. My first real attempt was russian roulette. I did the whole ceremony. After the second "click" I pointed the gun to the ceiling for the heck of it and BANG!

  I played russian roulette not because I was testing fate, but because I didnt want to know exactly when it would happen. Suprise factor.

  just a cry for help

  JUST a cry for help? What about helping them before they get that far?

  -Bren
• 

  flower

  Brad, I didnt think I was being hostile or insulting in my responses. If you want to 'discuss' the subject of suicide I like to discuss subjects that are very near and dear to me such as this. But I refuse to trade insults. If you were insulted by something I said it was unintentional. What I said was based on the statments you were making.

  I am not completely against suicide. I think if they want to do it, they will find a way anyway, so why not let them? From what most peoples' opinions are they are beyond help other than helping themselves anyway. However, at what point do we lay the law down, so to speak, to prevent them from hurting others, especially the children? Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and money SOLEY on the victims of suicide.

  You cannot make comments like that and expect not to have anyone comment on it or give their opinion. That is all I did when I said....

  Most support assistance is in place to prevent the act from happening in the first place which IMO makes a lot more sense than saying 'forget about them, they are as good as dead anyway but after they do it lets have lots more support for those left behind'. That is in essence what your previous post mentioned

  You call my comments "insinuating that your opinion is that we shouldnt care about preventing it or caring about people who attempt it". That I am "throwing insults". I have no idea where you see that in my post but everyone interprets things differently I suppose. You are the one who made those statements in bold.

  Doubtfully Yours makes a point, that people who don't succeed are just making a cry for help. I'm sure that many people out here can attest to that point being true as well. Instead of accepting that point as being legit you try to refute it by showing that when you didn't succeed, it wasn't because you didn't do your best

  If you read what I actually said I first acknowledged that this was true in some cases. However, the comment she made was pretty general and final. She simply said "If someone means to exit they will succeed". I just wanted her to know that there are exceptions to that statement. More often than not people attempt suicide because they want to die. Its not refuting her point...its accepting her point but adding my own example to show that its not always the case. I hope that helps you to see the difference.

  This "topic", however, is not about prevention, it's about the "after the fact", irregardless of the circumstances.

  I qualified an earlier post of mine by saying that I hadnt had time to read through all the responses. I was commenting solely on the question in the original post which asked how we view people who attempt or commit suicide. As I already said my answer would be different if you asked about those 'left behind'. I can and do sympathize with both sides.

  you are questioning everybody's viewpoint that is not EXACTLY like yours. What's that saying about the kettle and the teapot?

  If that is how you see the discussion you are entitled. I see it as a back and forth conversation where I have agreed with you on some points and not on others and where you have done the same. Usually when people disagree with something they tell why they disagree and give their own opinion based on the facts as they see them. That is what I was doing. Accusing me of lacking empathy based on what I posted in this thread couldnt be farther from the truth. I'm actually one of the most empathetic people you'd ever meet. Since you seem to have only skimmed my posts for something I disagreed with you on here are some of the other things I said..just a few.

  Brad, I didnt have a chance to read your post but I am sorry if my answer to the question of the title upset you

  I feel extremely bad for you and any other victim of that kind of emotional abuse.

  I certainly understand and feel very badly for you for your experiences

  I think someone who might be feeling the same way your mother did inside should hear stories from people like you and Brad who can give them another perspective on the situation especially if they have children as young as you guys were
• 

  LyinEyes

  Doubtfully Yours makes a point, that people who don't succeed are just making a cry for help. I'm sure that many people out here can attest to that point being true as well.

  I totally do NOT agree. I do not for one second think that all people who FAIL at a suicide attempt are " just making a cry for help".

  That statement is very ill informed to say the least. It can be true in some cases but I would venture to say that most suicide attempts are so much deeper than just a cry for help. When doctors use the term "cry for help", they do not necessarily mean that the person who has attempted suicide is just trying to seek attention,,,,,,more of less carefully planning out just the amount of pills to take so that it does not kill them....most times it means that the person is hurting so bad that they do not KNOW HOW to cry out for help with words asking for help. If that at all makes sense...... it is hard to put into thoughts.

  Many times , if not most of the time,,,,,,,the actual act of suicide is an impulse act. In that I mean that they do think of suicide, idealize it, and even come up with a plan. I think that most of the time the thought of ending their life is always there, they decide that it is going to happen sooner or later and many times wait , putting the actual act off until the pain is unbearable. That is why sometimes there is no suicide note, no plans made,,,,,,,because they do just pull the trigger, jump, or take that handfull of how ever many pills they can put in their mouths at that very moment.

  That is why I say it is so ill informed to say that a suicide attempt that fails is only a cry for help and was not intended to be carried thru.

  I know many people ( sad so many people I know who have tried this) who took a handful of pills.......( my Mom included so many times) , only to have someone break down a door,,,,,,,or find them in a secluded place,,,,,rushing them to the hospital and having their stomach pumped. Now the suicide in these cases was stopped,,,,,,,,,ONLY because someone eles intervened, by having the stomach pumped.

  I also know a lady who shot herself in the head,,,,,,,,,,now I don't know if I would just be wanting to see how close I could get to killing myself by doing this, but I am sure by talking to her, that she wanted to end it. The bullet came just a hair from killing her,,,,,,,but she meant to do it and she was greatly desturbed that it failed.
• 

  outbutnotdown

  Dede, you said:

  I do not for one second think that all people who FAIL at a suicide attempt are " just making a cry for help".

  I can't agree with you more. The words ALL and JUST, make it virtiually impossible, and, IMO falls into that category.

  This brings me to the next topic..... who is responsible?

  Brad
• 

  flower

  brad...dont take this the wrong way but are you trying to figure out what YOU think or what? you are what they call in politics a flip flopper.

  Doubtfully Yours said...

  IMO, people who attempt suicide and fail, the attempt is just a cry for help. When people really mean to exit, they succeed.

  you got on my case for disagreeing with her statement.

  now Dede said...

  I do not for one second think that all people who FAIL at a suicide attempt are " just making a cry for help".

  and you 'couldnt agree more'. the absence of the word 'all' in DY's statement does not make it mean anything difference since it wasnt replaced with the word 'some'. it just says "people".
• 

  BrendaCloutier

  This brings me to the next topic..... who is responsible?

  Responsible for what? Their attempt? Attempting to get them help? Responsible for their death?

  Anyone and everyone that has even an inckling as to what's wrong with this person.

  As I have said before a couple of times, if you know someone is in that situation and even just remotely getting ready to do themselves -

  Dammit! Get off your arse and DO SOMETHING! Get them some professional help! Call the suicide hotline, call the hospital, call 911, call the police, just DO SOMETHING!

  If they broke their leg you'd DO SOMETHING, eh? Call 911? If they had a heart attack, you'd DO SOMETHING, eh? Give CPR and call 911?

  Too many people die because of too many people who say "not my responsibility". (The mugging on the street where people walk by and ignore it. Etc. )

  It is anyone and everyone's responsibility to
  a friend
  a relative
  an acquaintenance
  the community as a whole

  I guess this is a sensitive subject for me, especially when I see so many apathetic people in here.

  "Yeah, but, they're just threatening again."

  Yeah but to threaten even for manipulation, their still sick. GET THEM SOME HELP! and they just might stop threatening and find a solution to their problems.

  This is NOT the time to think about how "I" feel about it, and whether or not "they" are going to be mad at me, or "what others will think". GET THEM SOME HELP!

  Geez

  -Brenda
• 

  jwbot

  I have had such extreme emotional pain, that it manifests itself as undescribably physical pain. I have come close a couple times. As a teen, I did not really want to die but I thought I did. More recently, I wanted to...but I didn't. it was odd...but I tell you, when that emotional pain is physical...I can understand wanting to end the pain. It really does hurt.