Unless you believe in "spirit(s)" you cannot be "spiritual"

by logansrun 38 Replies latest jw friends

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  Narkissos

  Bradley

  I am biting! There was another thread recently on "spiritual vs. religious": I was trying to find it and couldn't (even with the google search). There I said I was somewhat reluctant to use the term "spiritual" (although I can admit I am a kind of "religious-minded atheist," which is probably even more confusing to most people). Perhaps you help me understand why I am reluctant. Because the word "spirit", as the word "God," is still taken in a realistic sense by many (as if there was a real "spiritual realm" somewhere), it is not (yet) free for metaphorical use.

  Still from this point of view "spirit" would be a wonderful concept, since in our Western tradition (which owes so much to Paul) it is contrasted not only with "flesh" but also with "letter". And as such it could be a very good word for the "realm" of metaphor, symbol, or poetry... everything which we do invent or create over against the facts, which does not really exist but is so important to us.

  Some words are just not dead enough to be resurrected...
• 

  logansrun

  Very interesting points, Narkissos. I agree that the word "spiritual" -- like the word "God" -- tends to cause much confusion. People see a title like Paul Davies' "God and the New Physics" and they think he's talking about the same Guy who dropped the ten plauges on Egypt. Far from it!

  Because it causes so much confusion and, dare I say, doublethink -- could it be that non-believers in spirit should not use it at all? And believers use it more cautiously?

  B.
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Unless you believe in "spirit(s)" you cannot be "spiritual"

  I disagree. I thinks studying physics can be very spiritual. If Quantum physics is discussing the very nature of reality or at least probing deeper and deeper. That has got to be spiritual without and spirit involved.

  Thinking about a Non Local universe where there is no such thing as space and time because they are all illusions of thought,,to me that is pretty spiritual without a "spirit".

  A person's thinking about love is spiritual.
• 

  logansrun

  frankie,

  I agree that the world of quantum physics is truly awe-inspiring (and weird!). But, if there is no "spirit" -- whatever that might mean! -- there can be no spirituality in any literal sense.

  Love could be viewed as simply a collection of thought patterns, all electrochemically based, in the brain of a human being. *shudders*

  Bradley....wonders if the term "spirit" is so rooted as a "good thing" in our culture that we feel we simply can't live without it!
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  Winston Smith :>D

  At first glance, I wanted to disagree with you.

  ...but the more I thought about it, I suppose I can agree.

  I was thinking more in terms of Eastern philosophy [I've been taking some classes with a Zen group], and although Buddha is given mention, he's mentioned only as a person [with the group I'm with for now anyway]. The spiritual aspect comes into play when one considers that all human beings are interconnected with each other. Which corresponds to my Aikido training, by hurting another human, you are hurting yourself. We are all part of "the Universe". Even an introspective sitting, zazen, is a chance to disconnect from the physical world and ideas and live in the now free of self, but connected to "Self".

  So in the above thought, there is some sort of "spirit" that comes into play. I consider myself a "spiritual" person, but I do not necessarily believe in a soul or spirit passing on. But the above still qualifies as "spiritual" per your definition Bradley, right?
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  Narkissos

  It depends where you are and with whom you're speaking. In France I guess by now only a minority believes in God in any realistic sense. In many circles you can begin to use "God" figuratively (just as you would do of Venus or Apollo), and even the believers present will get what you mean and won't mistake you for a believer. I understand that in America, with a much higher ratio of believers and a highly defensive minority of skeptics, this may be generally impossible.

  Inasmuch as "spirit" is a common concept to both theistic and non-theistic religions, it is perhaps an even more ambiguous word. But (as I said on the other thread) we French can still manage our way, since besides "spiritual" our word "spirituel" can also mean "witty".
• 

  logansrun

  Narkissos,

  Yes. France. America. Biiiiiiiig difference!

  Winston,

  I'm not sure there is even much talk of "spirit" in Zen. I mean, practicers of Zen don't even really believe in reincarnation either. Interestingly, there have been studies done of meditators who talk about "being one" with the universe and it is reported that part of the brain -- the part responsible for location in space -- actually can shut down when they feel this. Now, is that an illusion, much like a psychedelic drug, or is the "real thing"? I'm not about to answer that.

  Basically this whole discussion is about monism versus dualism. I would think most Zen people would be classified as monists, but I could be wrong.

  B.
• 

  Brummie

  buddy...you're a Big Toe in my book!

  You're not supposed to go looking under Scottish mens skirts...tut tut
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  Winston Smith :>D

  Bradley,

  I would agree that practitioners of Zen would consider themselves monists:

  Philosophy 1. The view in metaphysics that reality is a unified whole and that all existing things can be ascribed to or described by a single concept or system.
  2. The doctrine that mind and matter are formed from, or reducible to, the same ultimate substance or principle of being
• 

  LittleToe

  Winston:
  I did the same as you. I had an immediate reaction, but then thought about it some more. The more I think about it, the more I think that our deep-thinking friend has unearthed something.

  Didier/Bradley/etc.:
  See, now I would use the metaphor of an omnipresent "Holy Spirit" as the fabric of the very universe.
  It marries quite well with some of the stuff that is coming out in Quantum Physics, as well as the "oneness" philosophies that abound.

  LT, of the "taking a Zen Christian slant on it, for a moment" class