Freedom or Bondage.....a Hard Choice for Many (page 3)

gumby

Alan.....your reply is a tough one to grasp. To think that all who have sacraficed loved ones to god in some manner......really didn't love those sacrificed is hard to believe. I know for a fact my daughter loves her kids to death.....yet I could see her not allowing a transfusion should one of her kids need one to live. People die for their country and leave their families heartbroke. Do these ones love their country more than their families?

Alan you bastard......I believe this is the only time I can remember disagreeing with you.

Gumby

Princess

I know for a fact my daughter loves her kids to death

Oh...My...God...

Gumby's a grandpa?

AlanF

Princess said:

: I sincerely hope you are wrong.

I wish I were, but I've seen too many instances of JWs sacrificing their 'loved ones' for their own selfish interests and those of the almighty Organization.

: My first thought when I read your comments above...he doesn't have children. No parent would say that with such authority.

I have a daughter who I love very much, and that's precisely why I say that with conviction.

: I think it's possible that they love their children with some conditions that they feel are for their own good and relate to their salvation. Some are definitely very much under the control and conditioning of the cult. To say that MOST JWs don't really love their children is way off base.

I don't think so. How many JWs, given a choice between giving up their children and giving up their religion, would choose their religion?

: I think the majority would take their chances and do what it takes to save their children.

I disagree. If that were the case, the blood issue would long ago have gone the way of the dodo.

: WTS be damned.

I wish!

AlanF

Gumby said:

: Alan.....your reply is a tough one to grasp.

Do you have any idea how hard it was for me to gradually realize that what I've said is true?

: To think that all who have sacraficed loved ones to god in some manner......really didn't love those sacrificed is hard to believe.

I think you missed a major point: JWs don't really have all that much faith in God or their organization. They know deep down that something is very wrong. This is proved by the fear they have for anyone who is a knowledgeable critic -- especially ex-JWs, who they call "apostates" as a way to demonize that which they fear. Despite that, they still grasp at the selfish desire to "live forever in Paradise".

: I know for a fact my daughter loves her kids to death..

Given the choice I just mentioned to Princess -- give up the kids or the religion -- which would your daughter pick?

: ...yet I could see her not allowing a transfusion should one of her kids need one to live. People die for their country and leave their families heartbroke. Do these ones love their country more than their families?

Of course. Or it could be argued that they love the principles their country stands for more than their families. This is quite different from the selfish motives I described above, which have a tangible reward in mind. What of the atheist who dies for her country?

AlanF

Pole

I guess it's called a social lie. Something we do in dozens of different forms every day. We smile to the neighbors we don't like. We pretend to be interested in weather forecasts just to make a conversation with people we don't really know. Family members deserve much more time and effort.

Everyone has to ask themselves the question: Would you have shunned your spouse/close relative a few years back if they had known what you know now? Would you have needed time to understand their motives for leaving the "Truth"? How would you have reacted to well balanced, logical argumentation if too many facts about the WTBS had been revelead to you at one time?

Pole

gumby

Alan....I believe witnesses sacrafice their children because they feel they will see them again if they are faithful to their god. These ones are willing to gamble. If they give in and their kid dies, they feel they may never see them again, if they are faithful and their kid dies, they and their child will live together someday. As for those who die for their country and leave family behind.....I do not understand as I cannot believe they die for a cause over the love of their family. Most military men have no more love of their country than a dub does for Watchtower beliefs. I can't believe millions of men love the cause of their country over their families,...... there must be another reason and I don't know what that reason is.

Gumby

Winston Smith :>D

Winston....can a person not have personal integrity to themselves in their heart by believing what they want within themselves? If my wife asks me if her butt looks big in her pants.....should I keep integrity to myself and tell the truth, or say...."yes hun, it looks good"?
Gumby

Gumblebutt I think that it can be little of both and benefit both parties. Instead of replying to the question of "Do these pants make my a$$ look fat" with a quick "yes", I think that it would be just as easy, and honest to say, "I think this other pair is more flattering" Integrity and tactfulness do not have to be mutually exclusive of each other. Wasn't there some saying in that old mythical book about "Apples of gold in silver Plymouth Caravans is a word spoken at the right time" or sumpin' RE: the parents not loving children, I agree with everyone.. I agree with all points because I feel that the True Authentic Self becomes buried inside of the "New Personality ?" that we were always trying to squeeze into. The cult personality will let the child die because of the blood issue. Hell, the cult personality would probably slit their own child's throat if "Arm-a-getting ®" was right around the corner and the WatchTower said that you had to kill your own child to get them into the "New System © ". The means justify the end. But deep down, the True Authentic Self would be pained beyond belief, because most parents [even JW one's] love their children and would give their own life for their child. Cult living is chock full with examples of Cognitive Dissonance. This is a big one.

Country_Woman

There has been a time that I was willing to refuse a tranfusian either for my daughter, my mother or myself. (and all of us did have bloodcards.)Those days I said: what is the worth of maybe 80 or even 100 years compared with eternity ?Everybody have to die once, old age, sickness or even an accident. And loosing that chance for eternal life ? no way.

That was then since, I don't put my trust in the organisation. I've thrown away my bloodcard and will happily except a transfusion when necessary.

Does that mean that I did'nt had true love for my daughter ? You can look at this from a different angle: my love was big enough to let her go (and mis her) without taking her chance on eternal life.... It was just a calculation.

Thank God there has been no accident or anything else that would have caused this.

Princess

I have a daughter who I love very much, and that's precisely why I say that with conviction.

I apologize. I didn't know that.

I think it's totally unfair of you to say with conviction that they don't really love their children.

Does that mean that I did'nt had true love for my daughter ? You can look at this from a different angle: my love was big enough to let her go (and mis her) without taking her chance on eternal life.... It was just a calculation.

nicely put

garybuss

I was bad enough at being a Witness when I was a believer. Now the first time an elder bared his ass to me to kiss, I'd probably shove the literature counter in.

Freedom or Bondage.....a Hard Choice for Many

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