The Global Flood

by coldfish 290 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

one

A cristian
I feel tire again but...
JONAS SIGN
I asked: "So only those who see the "sign" will survive, right?"
Your answer was:
"I never said that. Very few personally saw "the sign of Jonah", Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, before God brought Judgment on the Jewish nation at the hand of Roman armies in the first century.

In a previous post you said
"I see no relationship between the two signs.", i agree,
but
now you are changing your position so to speak. AND you well know that not only a few but ALL cristians prior to the Roman killing (god judgment), did beleive (could "see") "the sign of Jonah" AND those were the ones who survived and the one who did not "see" the sign did not survive. Period.
Actually the sign was to be "given" preached, transmitted to the "generation". That was the practical way they could "see" it.
:"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"
The listener had the option, "see" or not to see the sign, reject it, read this verse... . :
"they gave large money unto the soldiers, 13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. 14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you"
BACK TO THE "400" SIGN
Those who beleive the 400 etc are "seeing", but in reality none of them really measured the sun nor the moon, they just beleive what they are being told. Lets overlook that fact, you continue:.
Christians who are able
and willing to spend some time studying the Bible, history and science can come to know God even better. This, of course, has always been true
"hungry africans" ... and "poor african guy[s]" do not need to understand "the 4, 40, 400, 4000 theory"
What about this?, (who better than uneducated haitians or native indians all over the globe etc)
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;" [...] "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence"
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (wisdom of men provided the "400" clue, or did some cristian measure it?)
"400" SIGN FOR WHAT?
you state that the sign will be seen "Only by some of those who survive."
Whats so important about the sign then? If i rembember jw reasoning your are part of FDS or "Prnce" (or some equivalence) that will rule above the "africans".and other who did not "see" the sign but managed to survive.
The "cool aid" leader and many more (wt leader included) have something in common, they think they know or experienced something that most other humans guys dont know.
Sincerely yours,
one

A Cristian
With due respect, city fan presented the best one
You do realise that this ratio is not a constant don't you??
the 400 ratio may apply on october of each year... A Cristian have some work to do.
Earnest

At this late stage in the discussion I would like to contribute the thoughts of the Reverend Adam Sedgwick, Woodwardian Professor of Geology at Cambridge University, and President of the Geological Society of London in 1831. He was a good friend of Darwin and, in fact, had shared a great deal of geology with him just prior to his journey to the Galapagos. At the annual meeting of the Geological Society of London he recanted his belief that diluvial deposits were evidence of a global flood and then said :
...do we deny the reality of a historic deluge? I utterly reject such an inference. Moral and physical truth may partake of a common essence, but as far as we are concerned, their foundations are independent, and have not one common element. And in the narrations of a great fatal catastrophe, ... there is not a word to justify us in looking to any mere physical monuments as the intelligible records of that event...
The Bible is a book of faith, of moral truth, so the evidence or otherwise of physical events is quite irrelevant to the account. The purpose of the account of the Flood is clearly not to teach us something about geology or hydrology. It is teaching us something about faith. I suggest that some fundamentalists lose sight of this.
Earnest
toreador

Achristian,
Your comments in black, mine are in red. God's message to all of us today is a very simple one. Christ died for us. The rest in window dressing.
Then why the huge bible full of contradiction, myths, parables, allegories, killing, maiming, killing babies, women, etc.
Those who believe that Christ died in our place and then ask God to forgive their sins and begin doing their best to live as a follower of Christ will be given eternal life by God. Those who don't risk eternal condemnation. That is not to say that all who don't will be eternally condemned. Billions of people have lived their entire lives without hearing the Gospel message. Boy, these people get off easy they dont even have to believe.
Many who have heard the Gospel and have not responded to it may have failed to do so for a very good reason, a reason which God may fully understand on Judgment Day.
These people get off easy too eh?
Maybe you think that "a God of order" who is "a loving and caring God" would have fully controlled all of mankind's affairs from the very beginning, preventing all pain, suffering, death and injustice. It sure would prove he is a loving God dont ya think? Did he give pain, suffering, death and injustice to the angels he created in his image as well? That way they could see what kind of a loving God he is too. Or maybe you think that "a God of order" who is "a loving and caring God" would have made sure that every human that has ever lived was from birth given a complete, very easy to understand, instruction book from God, telling them exactly what God demanded from them in order to be given eternal life. Obviously God has not done those things.
And why not? Doesnt he love us? If I wanted my kids to have a good life and I know what was best I sure would have given them an easy to understand instruction book. Am I better than GOd? Thanks, Toreador
one

regarding the comment by Reverend Adam Sedgwick, quoted by Earnest I bsaid in one of the post above: "I take "faith" is not his/your main "support". Most diehard logical people find "faith" somethig used by some as an easy way out.
a Christian

One, You wrote: I asked: "So only those who see the "sign" will survive, right?" Your answer was: "I never said that. Very few personally saw "the sign of Jonah", Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, before God brought Judgment on the Jewish nation at the hand of Roman armies in the first century. --- In a previous post you said: "I see no relationship between the two signs." When I said I see no relationship I thought you were asking if they were both somehow the same sign. I guess I misunderstood you. Maybe I should have said I see very little relationship. You wrote: AND you well know that not only a few but ALL Christians prior to the Roman killing (god judgment), did believe (could "see") "the sign of Jonah" AND those were the ones who survived and the one who did not "see" the sign did not survive. Period. --- Actually the sign was to be "given" preached, transmitted to the "generation". That was the practical way they could "see" it. Very few Christians at the time of Christ personally witnessed His death, burial and resurrection. Nearly all First Century Christians believed without personally seeing "the sign of Jonah." I do not consider "believing" to be "seeing" the sign of Jonah. Jesus said the "generation" of people then living would see that sign. But He did not mean all people on earth then living, or for that matter even all then living who were then or would later become Christians would see that sign. For if merely believing in Christ means that someone would see that sign, then I guess all Christians who have ever lived have "seen" the sign of Jonah. I understand that "the sign of Jonah the prophet" was a sign that was given to the generation of people who were living at the time of Christ. You and I can disagree on this. That's fine. You wrote: Those who believe the 400 etc are "seeing", but in reality none of them really measured the sun nor the moon, they just believe what they are being told. I disagree. I believe the only ones who ?see? ?the sign of the Son of Man,? ?in the sun, moon and stars,? are those who have spent time studying the Bible, history and astronomy to truly ?see? for themselves that this "sign? is real. Simply hearing someone claim that Bible chronology and secular history clearly indicate that exactly 4,000 years passed between Adam and Christ does not count as ?seeing? the sign. Simply hearing someone say that astronomers tell us that the sun is exactly 400 times the size of the moon, etc., etc, etc., etc. does not count as ?seeing? the sign. To ?see? this sign one has to look up and confirm for themselves all biblical and historical references and all astronomical references. Hearing someone say something and then believing it is not "seeing" it. Eye witness testimony is accepted in court. Hearsay testimony is not. I wrote: "hungry Africans" ... do not need to understand "the 4, 40, 400, 4000 theory" You asked: What about this?, (who better than uneducated haitians or native indians all over the globe etc) What I meant was no one "needs" to "see" this "sign" just as no one had to "see" the sign of Jonah in the First Century. Most people are able to put their faith in Christ without needing "signs" to prove God is real. For most poor people in third world countries have not had their hearts hardened against God by the atheism many of us in affluent societies are exposed to constantly. As Jesus said to Thomas, ?Because you have seen you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.? But that is just how I see things. Maybe many in poor countries also will end up benefiting in years to come by "seeing" this sign. You wrote: You state that the sign will be seen "Only by some of those who survive." What's so important about the sign then? If i rembember jw reasoning your are part of FDS or "Prnce" (or some equivalence) that will rule above the "africans".and other who did not "see" the sign but managed to survive. The "cool aid" leader and many more (wt leader included) have something in common, they think they know or experienced something that most other humans guys dont know. The same can be said of any Christian who spends a few hours every week in Bible study. They end up knowing far more about God than 99 % of other Christians. But that does not make them any more loved by God or any more "saved" than other Christians. I don't believe that understanding what the Bible means when it refers to "signs in the sun, moon and stars" is any more important to our salvation than understanding any other parts of the Bible. You wrote: With due respect, city fan presented the best one You do realise that this ratio is not a constant don't you??the 400 ratio may apply on october of each year... I certainly realize that the 400 X distance ratio in comparing the earth's distance from the sun to the earth's distance from the moon is not a constant. In fact that ratio is only exact twice every lunar cycle, in other words, about twice a month. But it can truthfully be said that the sun is always exactly 400 X the size of the moon, in diameter, and it is always about 400 X as far away. City fan seemed to believe that our seasons are caused by the earth being farther from the sun in winter than in summer. That's not true. Our seasons result from the tilt of the earth's axis. The southern hemisphere is tilted toward the sun and experiences its summer during our winter. Vise versa for the northern hemisphere. Toreador, I wrote: God's message to all of us today is a very simple one. Christ died for us. The rest in window dressing. You responded: Then why the huge bible full of contradiction, myths, parables, allegories, killing, maiming, killing babies, women, etc. First of all, I disagree with the premise of some of your question. I don't believe the Bible is full of contradictions and myths. Next, I believe everything in the Bible is there for a purpose. Every part of it teaches us a lesson of some sort. Obviously much of it is poorly understood by most readers. Hopefully, you will understand it all at some point in the future. I wrote: Those who believe that Christ died in our place and then ask God to forgive their sins and begin doing their best to live as a follower of Christ will be given eternal life by God. Those who don't risk eternal condemnation. That is not to say that all who don't will be eternally condemned. Billions of people have lived their entire lives without hearing the Gospel message. You responded: Boy, these people get off easy they dont even have to believe. Is believing hard work? I don't think so. I wrote: Many who have heard the Gospel and have not responded to it may have failed to do so for a very good reason, a reason which God may fully understand on Judgment Day. You responded: These people get off easy too eh? Nope. Only if you consider it a burden to be allowed to now know God. I consider it a privilege. I wrote: Maybe you think that "a God of order" who is "a loving and caring God" would have fully controlled all of mankind's affairs from the very beginning, preventing all pain, suffering, death and injustice. Or maybe you think that "a God of order" who is "a loving and caring God" would have made sure that every human that has ever lived was from birth given a complete, very easy to understand, instruction book from God, telling them exactly what God demanded from them in order to be given eternal life. Obviously God has not done those things. You responded: It sure would prove he is a loving God dont ya think? Did he give pain, suffering, death and injustice to the angels he created in his image as well? That way they could see what kind of a loving God he is too. And why not? Doesnt he love us? If I wanted my kids to have a good life and I know what was best I sure would have given them an easy to understand instruction book. Am I better than God? I believe I answered those questions in the latter part of my post. But here it is again. I believe God has chosen for good reasons, up until now, to intervene very little in human affairs. For one thing, if God had completely controlled all of our affairs, protected us from all harm, and given everyone a complete instruction book, many of us would have complained saying God was giving them no freedom to do things their way. Many would have almost certainly said, "We don't need you. Leave us alone. We can make it just fine on our own." Adam and Eve said essentially the same thing. But outside the paradise of God they found hard times, a very harsh environment, sickness, and death. Just as every one of us today, whom God has permitted to go his own way, eventually finds. When God does intervene in human affairs in a very big way, when Christ returns, none of us will ever be able to say again, "We don't need God's help. We can do just fine on our own." For if anyone ever does, God will have all of human history behind us to prove him wrong.
Abaddon

a claimed Christian
To ?see? this sign one has to look up and confirm for themselves all biblical and historical references and all astronomical references.
Problem is, you can only do that as you are already so convinced your little theory is right you allow yourself to become dishonest with yourself.
But it can truthfully be said that the sun is always exactly 400 X the size of the moon, in diameter
Now we know that is rubbish. A lie. I've already demonstated this yet still you lie about it.
The Sun is 400.46 times the diameter of the Earth. It suits your argument to say 400 x , but it is a lie. Not only do you lie about people, you lie to support your beliefs. You will even claim (without any knowledge of the topic) that it might be impossible to ever determine the Sun's diameter. Your behaviour shows that it is not truth which is important here, but you vindicating (even if only to yourself) your personal beliefs.
and it is always about 400 X as far away.
The Earth orbits the Sun at 389.17 times the distance the Moon orbits the Earth. If someone owes you $400 and gives you $389.17 (when they have the rest of the money) and tell you they have paid their debt, they are an asshole. You allow rough equivalancies that are basically the result of chance to become significant IN YOUR MIND.
When questioned about why 400 is not 400, you have no explanation, just a tired excuse trotted out by every religonist from the year dot.
Problem is your excuse fails to exclude a chance arrangement of such cosmological factors that is merely significant in your mind.
Just like credulous people will see the face of Jesus in wood grain, or the Virgin Mary in a fence post viewed from the right distance and angle, and assign religious significance to it.
I believe God has chosen for good reasons, up until now, to intervene very little in human affairs.
Well, he certainly didn't direct the writing of the Bible. He didn't create man the way it is described, or destroy the world with a Flood. And the Israelites were just claiming to be god's people. So, yeah, not much sign of god in the history described in the OT is there?
And, yet again, I notice it is still all about you. You realise people actually notice you don't deal with half the issues people bring up. Have you glorified god in this thread? I think not. You've sought 'glory' for yourself and whine about fair criticism of sloppy speculation.
Evasion, intellectual dishonesty, lying about people, failing to honour god, being proud and 'rule' based...
Now, my reading of the NT means I shouldn't listen to a word you say as you are not bearing the fruits a Christian should.
Of course, you will have an answer for this (or at least one which satisfies you). But it won't make you right.
JW's have what they think are answers for everything, and we all know they are not only deeived but deceivers.
justhuman

I see this subject it is still going on, but you guys are forgetting something...
IT is not JUST THE BIBLE that it is Gods word, but there is also the TRADITION that goes along with the Bible, something that Protestant Churches do NOT accept.

a Christian

Abaddon,

I wrote: But it can truthfully be said that the sun is always exactly 400 X the size of the moon, in diameter.

You responded: Now we know that is rubbish. A lie. I've already demonstrated this yet still you lie about it. The Sun is 400.46 times the diameter of the Earth.

A few references, four on the moon?s diameter and four on the sun?s (I could give you a dozen more just like them.):

"The moon measures about 2160 miles (3476 km) across. The distance is about one fourth the diameter of the Earth, and 400 times smaller than that of the sun." http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/SamuelBernard1.shtml

Sun Facts - Diameter: 864,000 miles (1.4 million km) http://www.rrtearoom.com/horoscope/planets/Sun.htm

Maybe you will believe this article on the moon by Neil Armstrong, who has been there. ?THE MOON'S DIAMETER IS 3,476 KM (2,160 miles)?

http://set.lanl.gov/programs/lasso/LASSOTchr/spacecadettes/moon.htm

"Sun Fact Sheet - Diameter - 864,000 miles"

http://stardate.org/resources/ssguide/sun.html

The Moon ? ?with a diameter of 3476 km (2,160 miles)?

http://www.moonlightsys.com/themoon/facts.html

"diameter of the Sun can be calculated as 864,000 miles."

http://members.rediff.com/AbhinAru/Look.htm

Maybe you will believe NASA. Here is what they say on their web site about the diameters of both the moon and the sun:

"The moon - with a diameter of 2160 miles"

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/Academy/UNIVERSE/MOON.HTML

"the sun (actual diameter: 864,000 miles)"

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Numbers/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/seeing_the_earth_moon.htm

Now when I divide 864,000 (the most widely cited number for the diameter of the sun in miles) by 2,160 (the most widely cited number for the diameter of the moon in miles) I come up with 400.00.

I?ll respond to the rest of what you had to say when you apologize for calling me a liar.

If you refuse to do so, it should tell all here quite a bit about your honesty and humility.

Earnest

one,
I take "faith" is not his/your main "support".
Certainly faith is the main support for believing what the Bible says. On what else do you base a belief in resurrection?
Most diehard logical people find "faith" something used by some as an easy way out.

That's a bit of a generalization. What of Newton? Or Locke? Or countless others both past and present.
Earnest

The Global Flood

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