Are we to be Angels or merely mankind?What did Jesus mean?

by ko38 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ko38

  That is a question I would have never asked even a month ago.Being raised a JW how could you not know the answer?They told me time after time after time that we have an earthly hope.We can live forever in a paradise without sickness or death.(That sounded great to me).As i'm sure all of you are aware the wtbts has some rather selective interpretations of scripture.These are easily proved to their captive audience, I mean their followers by using their own translation of the bible.

  What I'm having a problem with is understanding who goes where?

  The jws believe that the annointed go to heaven and the great crowd benifit by being associated with these annointed by gaining eternal life on earth.Thus they are saying that the entire greek scriptures apply only to the annointed.(Possibly most or all of the bible)Now mind you I am inclined to disagree with that teaching as it means that christ does not lead us but men do.That Jesus for all intents and purpose was not speaking to us the great crowd when he spoke of sheep in the fold.

  Now if i am correct in my understanding the flip side of this reasoning is( that the other sheep not of the jewish fold included the gentiles in the same fold.)Giving them the same hope of life as a spirit or angel or whatever in heaven.Meaning at least for myself that i would go to Heaven.Now if this latter understanding is correct,who will live on earth then?

  I will admit that as of now i only have the NWT to use as a text.But does anyone see the problem here?Because at least in the NWT there are many references to those that will live on earth.

  Please all those that can help please do and if possible tell me what translation you are getting the understanding from.Thanks ko38
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  Narkissos

  ko38,

  I think on this issue at least it doesn't matter which Bible translation you use. Afaik, nowhere in the whole Bible is the prospect of individual everlasting life on earth ever suggested. When you look to texts such as Psalm 37 in context you get the idea of the meek inheriting the land (or earth) for themselves and their offspring by getting rid of unrighteous rulers or enemies -- not that individual people would not die. And when the prospect of eternal life comes up (in apocalyptic texts such as Daniel, and later in the NT) it is always on some "spiritual", "heavenly" level. The "final" perspective of a "new creation" ("new heavens and new earth", in Revelation and 2 Peter) as fulfillment of the redemption is only subsequent to that. The whole idea of "two hopes" is unbiblical.
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  ko38

  Nark, Then how doy you take the scripture "who did not create it for nothing,but to be inhabited" to time indefinate no less
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  Narkissos

  ko,

  My opinion is that each Bible text much be read in its own context. The first WT habit we must get rid of is that of making an arbitrary patchwork of unrelated texts and calling that a "Bible doctrine".

  So, Isaiah 45:18:

  For thus says the LORD,
  who created the heavens
  (he is God!),
  who formed the earth and made it
  (he established it;
  he did not create it a chaos,
  he formed it to be inhabited!):
  I am the LORD, and there is no other.

  says God created the earth to be inhabited, just as it is: it does not say for how long, and has nothing to see with the lifespan of its individual inhabitants.

  Psalm 93:1:

  The LORD is king, he is robed in majesty;
  the LORD is robed, he is girded with strength.
  He has established the world; it shall never be moved

  says God created the world as it is as a permanent structure: again, nothing about the mortality of its inhabitants.

  Of course other texts (especially in the apocalyptical literature, e.g. Isaiah 24--27) describe a destruction of the world. How you decide to handle this "contradiction" and many others is up to you. My take is that there are a lot of contradictory views in the Bible, but none of them suits the WT's.
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  Satanus

  Jesus, if he existed at all, was a jewish reformer who came for the jews. Paul's transferal of it towards nonjews made it a chimera. Let the jews have their religion.

  That being said, jesus spoke some things about the afterlife which agree more or less w beliefs that reach back in time among the greeks, egyptians babylonians and persians, as well as the hindu sanskrit writings, the buddhists, native americans, native south americans, ozzie aborigenes and european aborigenes. That is that there is an afterlife. Further, there are different levels in it, including heavens, hells and in betweens. Of course, the new sort of religion on the block, that of science, disagrees w this, since it is beyond the realm of their operations.

  S
• 

  ko38

  Well my issue is as simple as the psalm 37 verse 29 in wich it is stated regarding the righteous "They will reside forever upon it"Are we to take the word forever as literal?
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  Kenneson

  Ko38,

  Do you think that Isaiah believed he and all the people in the Old Testament would never die? Is it not more logical that he thought that there would always be someone living on the earth as long as there is an earth. Where does it say that he never expected them to die? All the people of the Old Testament as well as the New did not live on the earth forever. And all those from the New Testament until now have not lived forever. And even after we are gone, what makes you think that others will not have replaced us? And when they are gone, others replace them? And on and on as long as there is an earth.
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  Narkissos

  ko,

  Read the entire Psalm 37 and look for words such as "children", "offspring" or "posterity". Then imagine the first European settlers in America saying "we'll stay here forever": would that mean that they would not die, or that their children would stay there after them?
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  ko38

  Kenneson, That is a very good point.I have actualy thought of that.

  So does that mean that there is a cut off of people that will go to heaven? And when was that? Do you propose that a new cycle of humans will be perfect and live forever on the earth? Or will it keep spiraling in sin.If God does bring some to heaven why would he allow anything less than perfect on earth?
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  ko38

  Nark, The psalmist in chapter 37 is refering to a saving of the loyal ones. A relief from what they were used to.It sure seems like a promise to me