Teejay
Interesting thought, TJ. Hang on a minute, I'm tryin' to invent something. ;-)
I'll be back in a little bit, hopefully. I've got to go take care of something. I'm not ignoring you.
Friday
god is dead
by teejay 52 Replies latest jw friends
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Undecided
Hi Friday,
Your comment:
You are in deep dookie, Ken. :-)
We are all in deep dookie, no one has escaped death yet, even Christ died and we have seen nothing from him since, except a few fundies who claim he talks to them, and a few old guys who claim he's back invisibly. Why doesn't something happen!! I don't care if I go with the "world" bring it on. I haven't lost all hope in a creator, just the one described by the bible, a vengeful, hateful God, always describing some sword, fire or destruction.
Ken P.
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circe
Undecided:
I've just about given up on trying to understand the meaning of life, I will just live out what's left the best way I can to enjoy it without hurting anyone else.
Maybe THAT IS the meaning of life?
circe
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DannyBear
Hello Ken,
***I haven't lost all hope in a creator, just the one described by the bible, a vengeful, hateful God, always describing some sword, fire or destruction.***
What is so apparent to me, when reading the Bible story of creation, how far the writer's went to emphasise the obvious. Take for example the 'cherebims'(angels) placed at the east of the garden, to block man from returning to Eden.
It would seem that even the early desert dweller Isrealites could understand this simple statement..'and so God placed angeles to prevent man from returning to the garden'. But the writer's of this ancient sci-fi fantasy had to embelish and expand on gods handiwork.
Here is the actual quote from the King James Version Gen. 3:24;
"So he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a FLAMING sword, which TURNED every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
We who have witnessed the flaming swords of modern warfare, may not be overly impressed with a 'flaming sword'....but can you imagine the typical contemporary of Moses, who would be reading this drivel, what impact or power of those added verbs would carry? He/she was very aware that the sword was THE 'weapon'of his day. To visualize a free standing FLAMING sword, turning every which way, would make any self respecting soldier of there day shudder with envy.
My contention here is that the bible writer's use sensationalism and overt dramatics, to prick the ears, and emotions of the readers. Not something you would ascribe to the God of creation. But one can easily ascribe these sci-fi fantasies to men, who claimed inspiration, who claimed to be writing the actual words of God.
If this style of writing is any indication of true inspiration...my vote goes to Steven Speilberg...his Jedi Light Saber, still to this day....makes this viewer's imagination go wild.
DannyBear
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AGuest
Hello all... and may you have peace!
What a 'funny' thing... that this very subject should come up. I had just asked my Lord last night about all this time that has gone by and no 'action'. (Yes, I know some of you don't believe I have conversations. Moving on...)
What he said to me was sublime. He asked me how many 'generations' passed between each time our Father took action. He then stated to me that such 'generations' consisted of the Hebrews, and then the Israelites. And the time spans between action events got greater... yes? In fact, the time span from the giving of the Law Covenant to Shiloh (coming of Messiah) was a good 1,500 years, yes? Yet, He allowed this much time for ISRAEL... to get their act together.
He then asked me, "How much time then, would my Father allow for ALL of the nations to 'get their act together'? What would be sufficient? 20 years? 200 years? 2,000 years?"
He then asked me if 20 years seemed like a long time, and reminded me of my children. I has to answer 'no', it was not. "How about 200 years?" and he then reminded me how long "African-Americans" had been out of slavery in the US (about 140 years) and where things were at this point, and again, I had to answer 'no, 200 years is not such a long time.' "What about 2,000 years, then?" And I had to answer that I did not know... I had no frame of reference. 2,000 years seemed a long time... to ME.
He then asked me, "What if that 'day' had occurred a 2,000 years ago, where would you be?" Well, I WOULDN'T be. "How about 200 years ago?" Hmmmm... I STILL wouldn't be. "20 years ago?" Okay, now I would be. "Yes, and your children?", he asked me. Hmmmm... at least one of them wouldn't be.
He then asked me, "Are you SURE you're ready for things to move ahead faster? Do you really think my Father is being 'slow'?" I hesitated in replying, because, well... things HAVE been taking some time, yes? He then showed me what appeared to be my grandchildren and asked me, "And what of them?" Hmmmm...
I don't know about you all, but my life has not been SO bad that I wish life as I know it to end right at this moment. I cannot tell you HOW many times my Lord has said to me, "Are you ready to reside with me and me with you?" and I have had to tell him the TRUTH... "Ummm... I'm not so sure I am all that ready right this minute. I mean, yes, I would LOVE to be with you and reside in a place with no mourning, outcry, pain, death... but in all honesty, I have not completely severed my heart from HERE." (I mean, why lie? He can read my heart, yes, and so knows the answer even before I give it...)
So, now, for those of you who are 'craving the day of JAH', who want all this 'madness and chaos' to end... I have to ask you... ARE YOU SURE? For some, I know life has truly SUCKED to high heaven. The suicide rates kinda show that. But I promise you, that if I was to confess right here and now that I was fed up, couldn't take anymore and was gonna end it tonight... 99.9% of you would try to talk me out of it. That same 99.9% would try and help me find SOME reason... NOT to leave, but to remain here... in THIS world.
Take stock, folks. Indeed, it's bad here. I would be lying if I said otherwise. But if my Lord showed up tonight... are you REALLY ready? Are all those that you LOVE ready? Or would you ask Him to be patient JUST a little while longer, and wait on that loved one?
I am SO grateful that He knows more than I and can see what I can't. My desire to have things better for ME... may lead to the loss... of a loved one. A grandchild that I MIGHT have... and LOVE overwhelmingly... may never come into existence. Do I REALLY want that?
Take your time, Father. There's no hurry. You know what you're doing, and while we all can't 'see' that right now, we will. And when that time comes we will do as we always do, which is say, "Oh, NOW I see... DUH!"
Peace to you all.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
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DannyBear
Hi Shell,
You know girl, you have a very sharp intellect...but when you convey your well reasoned arguments for the 'lord', as coming from direct conversation with him, you destroy a good portion of there (arguments) validity.
Much of which YOU mused about time periods, can be recognized as a defense for God's delay. But your almost flipant reference to 'your lords direct conversation with you'....raises RED FLAGS in the mind of this reader..big time.
The fact is I have gotten to know you, outside the arena of relgious talk. You are a very savy lady, with gumption and personal integrity. So I have learned to read around your 'personal visions (conversations) with 'the lord', and despite yourself, I have learned alot from you.
I guess all of the above is leading to this question; Why must you throw into every sentance or paragraph, words that deter, not enhance your message? Please don't respond with 'it is what my lord tells me to do'....99 percent of the reader's here do not claim any such personal conversations with the lord. Are you not setting yourself above your listener's by your claims of such personal attention from God? If you will get the message out, why not do it without causing others to wonder; Is Shelby so much better than me, that she gets to hear God's own direct voice? Why doesn't God talk to me, like that?
What you may fail to realize now, is that most of the board had shown a real fondness for you...remember all the bitterness toward Pheobe on H20? Why not now fully realize, YOUR, Shelby's, thoughts and reasoning's do not have to be qualified, with all the extra endorsements from God. YOUR opinion is valued, it can and will stand on it's own merits.
The above offered in the spirit of friendship, and to assure you that this poster is very glad to have witnessed your journey, since those early ugly days on H20. I think if you can apply any of the above suggestions your message, will be even more powerful.
Your friend
Danny
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Yadirf
Undecided
(I tried to post this several hours ago, but I had reached my limit of posts for today.)
I'll repeat what I said earlier:
Quit fighting it, Ken. I provide the answer that it takes to satisfy the question and you merely avoid it and come up with another ridiculous question to hide behind. When are you going to come to grips with the fact that you are hiding from God Himself?
You SEE, Ken, you just did it again with your last reply. You have a way of skipping out on what you bring up, by bringing up what you believe to be yet another insurmountable problem for Bible believers. Someone answers your objection, driving you into a corner, and then you try getting out of your corner by completely ignoring what was said. Isn't that the reason why apostates are referred to as "weasels"?
Ole Teejay's gonna think that I don't want to answer him. I've used up my allotment insofar as the 25 allowed posts are concerned, and I've just wasted this one on YOU. I'll do doubt have to wait for another lengthy period probably in order to be allowed to post again.
Friday,
who's moving in on ole Ken P.PS> I now see why you hang around sites like this site and H20, Ken. People here make you feel good being a weasel, don’t they Ken. It got a bit much too warm for you down at the Kingdom Hall … you ran out of places to hide down there, didn’t you Ken.
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hippikon
Just thought I'd tie the two together
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8391&site=3
"God was evolutions biggest mistake"
Hippikon -
philo
Thanks, Jan, for that quotation from Nietsche. I would love him if he weren't such a dangerous writer to love.
: Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder?
This is how I feel as I read him, physically, weightlessly tumbling. It's ghastly. Every so often I hear myself saying - Jesus Christ - to pause for breath: I'm quite sure he intended this effect.
Teejay,
As I read Equiano I often thought of Voltaire's Candide which he probably had read.
philo
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teejay
Good morning Shelby,
Thank you for your thoughts on this thread but I think you may have misunderstood the focus of my initial post. I wasn't necessarily wondering why the end hasn't come yet, what JWs describe as Armageddon preceded by a great tribulation of undetermined length. My primary focus is the glaring and unmistakable lack of action on the part of god toward humankind, god, who for more than 2,000 years following the completion of the bible, has been pretty much speechless and without undisputed witness in the known world.
In your post I find you to say that, "god allowed Israel 1,500 years... to get their act together"
Let's say that's a true statement. Didn't god act several times during this time period, performing even earth-shattering miracles that are well known even today, and otherwise making his presence and personal interest known by way of spoken words and written communication? In comparison, if his level of activity since 1 A.D. were to indicate his existence or lack thereof, it would seem to most that god has certainly come up missing.
After considering a series of time frames, you say that if "that 'day' had occurred 200 or a 2,000 years ago" you would not have been alive to reap the benefits.
Whenever god chooses to act, there will be generations of people who will be cut out of god's benefit program since their forebears will have had their lives cut short by god years earlier. You DO understand this truth, yes? So, that cannot be a consideration of why god has been so silent till now.
Finally, you said that your life has never been so bad that you ever wished to accept your heavenly reward (something you say is true up to this very moment). You said, "I'm not so sure I am all that ready right this minute... in all honesty, I have not completely severed my heart from HERE." You asked, "for those of you who are 'craving the day of JAH', who want all this 'madness and chaos' to end... I have to ask you... ARE YOU SURE?"
Again, this is a moot point. God -- correct me if I'm wrong -- isn't waiting until the greatest number of people decide that, "ok, NOW is a good time, Lord, because NOW I'm ready. Bring it on." As far as I'm aware, god is supposedly working on his own timetable, and the readiness of humans as a determinant to his action (or inaction) has never been a factor.
Btw, I've always been extremely leery of religious, spiritual, god-oriented (how ever you want to say it) people who were out-spoken about their status as "chosen," had "heard god's voice," or otherwise were sure of a heavenly "calling" who were, at the same time, hesitant to accept its coming. Heaven has to be better than life on earth in every conceivable way, and if I believed it, if I were ever a JW anointed or a Baptist holy roller, I'd be ready all the time, at any time. I have always been highly suspicious, and your admission does nothing to allay that deep suspicion, that those who claim what the claim do so out of an emotional sentiment rather than a thinking, rational one.
Restating my current position:
If I have to base my belief in god on something other than faith but look instead at the historical record along with current events, the tangible record does not speak very forcefully for a living, loving, omnipotent being.
peace,
toddp.s. your note to Shelby, Danny? Well said. Shelby is smart enough and respected enough that she doesn't need god to cosign everything she says. Inferring his input has an overall negative effect on her posts, imo.